Has Hate Corrupted the Church?
As a writer with a public blog I’ve become used to getting hate emails. Sure, some people might leave offensive comments on a blog, but the real vitriol gets reserved for emails. From the sick and twisted ones detailing what sexual violence I need done to me to cure me of my feminism to the reminders that I will one day burn in hell because of my association with the emerging church, I’ve become used to the church’s odd way of demonstrating “love” to one’s neighbor. But when I look at the two posts that have far and away garnered me the most hate mail, I find it difficult to not be disturbed and heartbroken for the church.
Last summer my inbox filled up with angry responses to my post recounting the often ignored history of the slaughter of the Native American’s at the Taos Pueblo (men, women, and children took sanctuary in the church and the US Army burned them alive inside). I was called every name in the book for daring to question the greatness of the US and our right to Manifest Destiny. Then recently, my post supporting the Cordoba House (the mosque going in near Ground Zero) was linked to at the Cordoba House site to demonstrate that some Christians do support the project. That of course brought on a new wave of hate in my inbox. From those accusing me of supporting the pedophile religion of Satan to those telling me I was mocking the power of Jesus by tolerating Muslims, I witnessed the overwhelming animosity Christians hold towards the other. The words of Jesus to love our neighbor apparently don’t apply if that neighbor looks or believes differently than we do.
Out of everything I have written, that these two posts should elicit such visceral responses demonstrates how deep the issues of racism and prejudice still are in the church today. Oh, churches might give lip service to accepting others and being “colorblind,” but in reality those fears and prejudices run deep. The general message of the white American church is eerily similar to a white person saying “I’m fine with black people; I just don’t want them living next door.” So we are fine with collecting dream catchers and turquoise jewelry and seeing sexy Native American teens running around shirtless as they turn into wolves, but not with listening to their side of the historical story or admitting to our country’s acts of terrorism against their nations. And some even say they are fine with Muslims as long as they don’t put a mosque where we can see it or ask us to engage in reconciliation projects. Stereotypes and prejudices are preferred to the truth and anger erupts if such positions are questioned or challenged.
Granted, many Christians aren’t even okay with the lip-service tolerance or the “equal as long as they are separate” mentality. Recently Pastors Terry Jones and Wayne Sapp of Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, FL declared September 11, 2010 to be International Burn a Koran Day. In a YouTube video (warning – video contains footage of a burning Koran) he tells viewers “if you call yourself Christian you should be burning the Koran because it is of the devil.” Their blog even lists the top ten reasons to burn a Koran as if it is some sort of late night comedy routine (interestingly enough, I've heard most of the arguments they list used against the Bible as well). Similarly, in a recent trip back to Taos, NM I heard some white Christians discussing how the genocide of the Native American nations was a blessed gift from God to eliminate the satanic influence of their cultures from our “one nation under God.” There are some things that are just so extreme and so absurd that it is hard to believe people are even saying them much less saying them in the name of Christ, but for many Christians this sort of hatred is at the core of their faith practice. Vengeance and revenge against the other has superseded the commands to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecute us.
The question that plagues me is if the church will ever repent of its allegiance to hate and start following in the way of Chris instead? It seems like the church has embraced a culture of hatred. I used to have a bumper sticker on my car that said “I’m for the Separation of Church and Hate,” but someone found its anti-hate message so offensive that they vandalized it with a marker. On top of that, much of the church has lent its ear to the false prophets who mock the words of Jesus and who command their followers to run from the churches that encourage us to love our neighbor or to set the oppressed free. When the truth of God has been replaced by these racist and hate-filled lies of our culture, it is hard at times to have hope for the church. When yet another hate email arrives in my inbox questioning my faith because I spoke out against acts of violence and terrorism against non-white American peoples, I have to wonder where Jesus is in the church these days. But even amidst all that darkness there are glimmers of hope. I see the Christians (the National Association of Evangelicals even) asking that the International Koran Burning Day be canceled in the name of Jesus. I see the handful of Christians willing to stand with Muslims as they build the Cordoba House. These are public voices presenting to the world the side of Christianity that isn’t defined by violence and hatred. They may be few, but it is enough to keep believing that the core of Christianity hasn’t been completely corrupted or destroyed.
julieclawson(at)gmail(dot)com 
OK – I get what Anne Rice is trying to do. We – as human beings gather against the "other" because we desperately fear becoming "the other". It is the human way of gathering from the beginning of culture. And Christ calls us out of that. Imagine – Christ calls us to embrace the enemy, the outcast – to see their humanity as ours. The church – from year 33 has not quite understood that. the church understands that we are to love, that we are to forgive, that we are to care for one another, but the church does not grasp that it means being the "other". Rene Girard has captured this anthropology better than anyone in the past 50 years and his work is slowly changing those of us who are exposed to it.
I believe it was Phyllis Tickle who pointed out that when we embrace the utter humanity of every beloved life on this planet – gay, Muslim, saints and sinners – when we decline to dehumanize anyone – we will be Church. the church with a small c – has needed to declare some less human, less deserving of God's love – The CHURCH – which always begins with statements like yours will need a lot of crosses to hang those who love both the oppressed and the oppressor, the murderer and the victim, the gay and straight, the Muslim, the Jew, the Christian, the Hindu. those who will care about them all as perfectly created and loved human beings will indeed have to carry a cross. To love them all will make you an outsider. So don't expect anything except hate mail. We all live our lives trying to be good and trying to find the sacred. Instead we must simply try to find the holy – the place where no vengeance, payback, revenge or resentment can live. To be a Christian might mean you have to live in a church that will hate you. Nobody said it would be easy. Fred Rogers introduced me to the concept that the accuser is Satan while the one who defends my humanity and that of all is the Paraclete. that Mr. Rogers – one line and he changes everything for me. then along comes Rene Girard and fills in the blanks so that I cannot even hear a sermon or homily in the same fashion. Scripture is transformed. Redemption is to accept that all life is beloved – there are no exceptions. Certainly screwed with my certainty. I think that is a good thing. The core of Christianity is that discovery and most Christians suspect it but are afraid to embrace it. Well – that is not exactly as clear as I would have liked, but it will have to do.
Thank you.
You are eloquent, and speak for many Christians who support people of other faiths, and who try to spread a message of love an acceptance. I'm with you, too.
Peace!
For a comic take on the phenomenon you describe, I like Pearls Before Swine:
http://comics.com/pearls_before_swine/2009-02-21/
I'm sorry that you feel so hurt by the church. But maybe the hateful people you are calling part of the "church" aren't actually the church at all. It is pretty silly for Christians to be going around and burning Korans, but honestly, they are of the devil. I mean, you agree with that much at least, don't you? That Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that no one comes to the Father except through Him? There's nothing hateful about that message — it's all about love. The point isn't to hate on Muslims or Native Americans or Blacks or anyone (I don't know where all the racial stuff came in — I know there are many Black and Native American Christians) but rather to love on them by witnessing to them of God's great love for them and the atonement He provides to them in Jesus Christ.
It is more than likely that anyone sending you emails talking about how you should be sexually abused is not a Christian, and not part of the Church at all. So pity them, and pray for them — but don't feel sorry for the Church. The Church is just a bunch of rotten sinners who are saved by grace! Feel sorry for the souls who will perish in their rejection of Jesus Christ. They need Him. And we who are the Church are called to be witnesses of Christ's love for them.
I think your post begs a larger question: is God liberal or conservative? I think the backlash that many Christians like Julie receive comes from an opposing political viewpoint… from people that believe you must reflect a certain political philosophy in order to be a "real" Christian. Religious clashes (between Christians) over what should be done about illegal immigration, same-sex marriage, abortion, and stem-cell research illustrate how the passions of human nature can blind us to the words and teachings of the Lord our God. Many people make up their minds about the political issues at hand, and then go looking to the Bible for their "religious backup," after which, they accuse any one who disagrees with them of being heretics and fakes. They use God to polish their own ego and harden human divisions, rather than humbling themselves through allowing God to use them to soften and eliminate human divisions. Truth is, God is neither liberal or conservative, male or female, black or white… God stands above the divisions we make among ourselves. Shouldn't this be what we strive to do as Christians, as well?
Thanks for a thoughtful post here, Julie. I am sorry to hear about the hate mail you have received. From one Christian to another, I am glad I have you as a sister in Christ. Thank you for all that you do.
How can you defend and promote a 'religion' that has been based on second hand, very poor second hand stories from Jewish clerics. the ilah's messanger purchased these stories and invented islam:
Allah is the name of the Islamic god – it was never the Arabic word for "God."
Qur'an 5:4 "Pronounce the Name of Allah: and fear Allah; for Allah is swift in reckoning."
Every time you read the word "God" in an Associated Press article emanating from the Islamic world, know that they are unwittingly propagating this deception. Muslims have a perfectly good word for "god" and they use it with great regularity. They say, "There is no ilah but Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger."
they have named God, and his name is allah. now do you get it? pedophillia, murder, hatred, theft, debauchery all to be found in the koran, but even after all the protestation of the muslims, there is very little mention of world peace, and no mention of love towards others… the islamic overlords are here, get used to it, they have the most powerful man in the world {barrack hussein obama!!} and are intent on corrupting capitalism, bringing a downfall to not only 2 towers but the western civilisation as we know it, and they build magnificent caastles, erm, mosques on or near their greatest victories… wtc being one!!
Qur'an 5:17 "Verily they are disbelievers who say, 'The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.'"
and it is every good muslim's duty to kill in jihad non-believers, the jewish and christians being the top of the hate list {we've seen this before? mein kampf? adolf hitler? ring any bells? anyone?}
this is fact, not hate, just quotes, take off the rose tinted spectacles, wake up and smell the roses. Jesus was the son of God, born of man… he had his weaknesses…
just one more thought : 12 disciples, only 4 gospels??? what happened to everyone elses' accounts of the life and times of christ??
Dear bigdek1234:
Your post illustrates how easily we as Christians can get so mired in our divisions that we forget our commonalities. Your post illustrates so clearly the point that I made in my post. I wonder how different our world would be, and how many more people would choose to follow Christ, if more Christians would have the courage to understand and love those who are different, rather than disparage their mere existence. I could quote you lots of places in the Bible where God calls us to be kind, compassionate, understanding, and empathetic, especially to those who are weak and oppressed in our society (notice that God didn't call us to be compassionate to Christians only). But I think those references would be lost on you. That is a true shame.
@ Julie – excellent article on this timely topic. I agree with you 100 percent. I have been greatly distressed at how many Christians are perfectly willing to act and speak out of hatred and a spirit of revenge regarding the Cordoba House Initiative. Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks…
My own perspective on Cordoba House can be read at http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5632036/cordoba_house_religious_liberty_for.html
The worst collection of hate mail I received as a result of an online article (and it was truly nasty) came as a result of an article I wrote titled, "A Christian response to illegal immigration." Wow. I nearly gave up writing over that one! I didn't know people who called themselves Christians could be so evil.
@ Elizabeth – you raise an excellent point about political loyalties. I have become firmly convinced that I can be neither a Democrat nor a Republican. I cannot belong to any political party, for political parties are concerned with building a political kingdom. I am called to be concerned with building God's kingdom – not any earthly kingdom. There are issues where the Republican party seems closer to Biblical values in my understanding, and there are places where the Democrat party seems closer to Biblical values in my understanding. NEITHER party is, nor claims to be, a Christian party. They are both political parties with their own agendas that may or may not coincide with Biblical values and mores.
@ bigdek1234 – I do not see how Julie defended or promoted Islam in this article. Rather, I see her argument as being that we should seek to obey the commands to love one another – even those who are not like us. We will very clearly win more people to The Way by loving them as Jesus loved us than by hating them and acting like the devil himself.
If more churches plan things like the Burn a Koran Day, I'm going to pull an Anne Rice …
Hey Julie, it really breaks my heart that you would receive hate mail from anyone. That's just so sad. I am with you in spirit when you write your posts. I wish I could write as eloquently as you. Thank you for always speaking out and telling the truth.
Awesome article, but who's Chris?
If Christianity and things such as hatred and racism aren't compatible, then perhaps we need a new word for the brand of faith practice that incorporates these things. "Haters" and "hellbound" are already taken. "Christinsanity" perhaps, but I bet that's already taken, too.
I dunno, but what a good article! Thank you!
@ Benjamin Davenport,
Are you calling the Koran the devil or the Christians who burn it the devil?
I have to agree with you. I recently wrote on my blog about using the Internet for evangelism (here: Internet mission and evangelism | Khanya) but noted that many "Christians" iseit for kangelism, not the Good News of Jesus Christ, but the bad news of hatred, anger and bitterness. So much of it manifests the works of the flesh rather than the fruit of the spirit.
I haven't seen much of it in the way of blog comments or e-mails (though I do see an example in one of the comments above), but I've seen plenty in newsgroups. The devil is not active among Satanists — they are volunteers, so he doesn't have to worry that they will run away. No, he's left them minding the shop while he goes and causes havoc in the Christian churches, stirring up hatred and strife.
bigdek1234:
Your comments illustrate precisely the kind of thing Julie is speaking of. However, not only is what you have written inflammatory, it is clearly written out of ignorance. I don't know where you get your "information" about Islam, the Qur'an, or Muslims, but your sources are quite suspect, to say the least. At the very least, we ought to try and understand Islam the way Muslims understand it before we begin to criticize it–so we aren't attacking straw men.
Regarding the Qur'an, it's quite easy to pull inflammatory verses out from here and there and claim that they represent what the Qu'ran and Islam are about. Since most Americans probably have never read the Qur'an for themselves, such a strategy might "work." But if a non-Christian were likewise to pull inflammatory verses out of the Bible (and, certainly, you have to admit that there are such verses) and then claim that this is what Christianity is about, you would be incensed, I am sure. With that in mind, I will recommend a book: Approaching the Qur'an, by Michael Sells. Its "approach" is similar to the approach that Muslim children receive. In the book, you learn the latter suras, or chapters. You really owe it to yourself to read this book and try to understand the Qur'an, and Islam, from an Islamic perspective. Then, perhaps, you might be qualified to level criticisms.
Your knowledge of the etymology of the name Allah is quite inadequate. You are correct that the Arabic language has a word, "illah," for god (but please note my lack of capitalization here). But Allah is simply Al-illah, with Al- being the Arabic definite article (i.e., "the"); therefore Allah = The God. Allah, therefore, means God. It is the word that Arabic-speaking Christians use for God.
Peace,
Don
don : no ignorance regarding islam here my friend, and if you doubt, or find the source inflammatory then my work is done, as it is ALL quoted directly from islam. please read the koran, as all quotes, definitions are found there {i even posted the relevant chapter and verse for you}… as for the naming of god, that is trickled throughout the koran, as is the fact that they look down on Mary, Jesus and the one true God, AND ALL CHRISTIANS and if you dare to attend prayer meetings then you shall also witness these teachings… reading books by westerners about an eastern culture, attempting to enlighten the infidels, seems too much like "white man brainwashing white man". Please do not depend upon wikipedia for information!
elizabeth : i find it extremely difficult to love and forgive and accept anyone, or anything that wants to destroy my family, my life and my beliefs… growing up during the 70's and 80's in the UK, my faith was tested like no-one here could believe… how could Christians {catholics} be so forward in wanting to kill, maim and destroy Christians {protestants}, and eventually vice versa… throw in a good measure of politics and maybe you could start another blog regarding such hatred during these times!
ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS… THE CRUSADES TO THE HOLY LAND
as americans, what do these mean to you?
Thank you, Julie. I really appreciate this blog and your stances on equality and love. I'm so sorry you have to confront so much hatred, but I'm grateful for your courage.
@Bigdek1234: "ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS… THE CRUSADES TO THE HOLY LAND
as americans, what do these mean to you?"
Well if we go by the Gospel according to America, it means let's rape and pillage every heathen land in the name of Jesus and Democracy. But if we look at what the Bible actually says, we learn that our battle is NOT against flesh and blood, but against spiritual forces.
Bigdek1234:
You apparently didn't read or understand a single thing I wrote. But, I suppose, that's OK because you already know everything you think you should know about Islam and Muslims and you have no need to learn more.
You are so, so ignorant and refuse to recognize it. How tragic.
Interesting comments. Jesus has called us to love our neighbors as ourselves as well as our enemies. That's a lot easier for me to say than for someone who lost a loved one, a wife, a daughter,a husband, etc. in the 9/11 attack. I think that as Christians we do need to reach out to Muslims and try to show them Christian love but we also need to show love to those whose hearts were wounded by the attack. To support having the Cordoba House built so close to Ground Zero would not be an act of Christian love towards those people. The Muslims should build their Cordoba House maybe a mile away but not where it would stir up so many bad feelings.
Thank you Julie, as always, for your thoughtful post. (The first comment, Betsy's, was equally helpful).
I think that "the church" has always struggled with how it deals with the human tendency to hate. The same texts that liberated early Christians from a world of oppression were later used to put down and demean as power shifted. That cycle seems to repeat, over and over.
I believe that an honest church (and Christian) is called to struggle to see in every situation how the overarching message of Jesus' ministry applies: the Good News of the Kingdom of God, known for its gentleness and generosity…especially towards one "neighbor" (which, we remember, specifically included the hated Samaritan).
re: Nicky's comment – while I can sympathize with those who say it is insensitive for Muslims to build a community center/mosque near Ground Zero, I think that reaction is based on the misperception (fostered by our media and the political rhetoric surrounding 9/11) that "Muslims" as a whole were our enemy on 9/11, rather than simply one extremist and highly-politicized group of violent Muslims. If, as an earlier commenter suggested, Christians and Christianity in general should not be blamed for the hateful attitudes and actions of some Christians, then neither should all Muslims be held responsible for the extremist actions of a few Muslims from one particular sect of Islam. "Muslims" are not to blame for 9/11, al Qaeda is to blame. Islam is not our enemy. It seems to me that the whole point of the Cordoba House is to help people come to understand that.
Well said Mike
Patriotism is a heresy. Ask (well, look in) St. John Chrysostom. To hate another person is not the Way of Christ. Look in the gospel! Jesus hung on the cross and forgave those who killed Him. Do you need a better example? The apostles reached out to those in Jerusalem who persecuted and murdered Him (and often His followers) and many believed. You can`t convert someone, or pray for his soul sincerely, if you act in hate. And don`t give me, hate the sin, love the sinner. God says forgive and forget the sin, and love the sinner, because that`s what God did for you!
Christians, stop confusing your national politics with your faith! They are not and should not be the same! His Kingdom is not of this world. (He said so.)
Hi Mike, I'm glad you brought up the name of the islamic center. That is another area that is causing unhappiness since Cordoba is a place where the early Muslims martyred (executed) at least 48 Christians for standing up for their faith in Jesus.
don: sticks n stones ya-boo. the koran blatantly preaches against anything that is not islam. it teaches it's followers that non-islamic peoples are the infidel, unworthy, unwashed, and therefore are not part of allah's plan for entrance into heaven. {one way to gain certain entrance to heaven is by strapping a copious amount of explosives to one's body and killing as many infidels as possible, it is promised that there shall be at least 4 virgins waiting for you as a martyr of the jihad}.
I am a firm believer of peace love and harmony {yup, it's true}, but i am also a believer that everything has an equal but opposite side. physics state that every action must have an equal but opposite reaction, the same is found in nature, chemistry and mathematics. my point is, without hate, there is no love, without war there can be no peace, without anarchy there can be no harmony etc… the koran, mohammed and the teachings of both provide a wonderful insight to the anger and hatred within human nature… the tora, the dhamma {sp.}, the vedas etc. teach of love and forgiveness… {the bible is not included, as i am becoming thoroughly convinced that it was re-written for *****'s personal gain, and has become the chinese whispers of God rather than the word}.
mike: islam is not our enemy, but we are there enemy, and they have been fighting all religions since circa 10th centruy AD
nicky : nice one, but the christians were slaughtered after being tortured, something akin to the punishments carried out by the catholics during the inquisitions…
magdalena : but are not politics and religion intertwined?, a fight for power, a battle against right and wrong, one man's terrorist is another man's saviour?
bigdek1234:
Are you familiar with these verses? I could add many more if I had time.
Sura 4 (An-Nisa): 90–If [your adversaries] leave you alone and do not fight, and offer peace, God has left you no reason to fight them.
Sura 5 (Al-Ma'idah): 82–You will find the closest in love to the faithful (i.e., Muslims) are the people who say: "We are the followers of Christ," because there are priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.
don, i forgive you, and understand your frustrations which lead to the name calling and horrible assumption that there is tragedy in my life, but may i pull your attention to :
http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm
bigdek1234:
I did not seek your forgiveness because I did not call you names. By your own words, you have demonstrated your ignorance of Islam and your refusal to learn anything that might call you into question your conclusions about the religion.
You have created your own narrative about Islam, and neither I nor any others can disabuse you of it. But the narrative you have created betrays your almost complete lack of understanding of the religion.
That's all I have to say.
Peace,
Don
I'm sorry that you have to deal with with hate letters just because in a country where you "have" the freedom to express your opinion and views it seems it's brings out the "opposition's" rights to express their hate against you.
Sorry that you have to face this just because you are willing to take a stand for what you believe is right. Why can't we disagree without hate?
There are people literally insane in any group. What does the church do with those? Cast them out? There are tares out there. There are sophomoric atheists/agnostics out there acting as trolls, trying to get a rise from you. There are also those who belong to non-Christian orgs and consider themselves Christian.
Has hate corrupted the Church? The Church is pure and without spot. So, technically, no. What should we do with tares? I think that has been answered by one with more expertise than me.
I'm not currently leaving the very tradition bound church I'm in, but trying to serve as a light there. On the side, though, I'm trying to learn more about the world as Jesus saw it on earth, and how He loved. That includes senders of hate mail. Christ accepted crucifixion. If you abide in Him, (and He in you), then you abide in His character of love. Congratulations for receiving any email hate letters for the same reason Christ received nails pounded into His wrists. You are much blessed.
It saddens me deeply that in general discussion "Christian" has come to be used as the term for a very narrow, self-righteous, bigotted, arrogant, "holier-than-thou", intollerant, hate-filled, minority of the people who follow Christ.
When people who love Christ and attempt to follow His teachings in their lives feel that they cannot call them selves "Christians" a very grave wound has been dealt to our Faith.
I do not agree with every doctrinal policy of the church I attend, nor do I agree with every doctrinal policy of other churches. I do not say that they are "wrong" but rather that I do not agree with them. I attempt to shine light by my example and hope that if I am correct others will come to see as I do. If I am not correct I hope that I will come to see the right.
It is quite possible for people of good faith to disagree. What is not healthy is when we allow disagreement to flower into hatred. If I tell you that you are lesser than me because you do not believe as I do, then I have failed in my love for you. To truly love you I should always regard you as being of equal worth to me, and seek always to find what is worthy in you, not what is unworthy.
@Don
Don, you are me, sadly, and miss things. Would you mind me pointing out what I see? I'm sorry that I cannot do this in secret.
1. You told bigdek, "You are so, so ignorant and refuse to recognize it. How tragic."
You later said, "I did not seek your forgiveness because I did not call you names."
Don, if I said, "You are so, so, ignorant," to your face, would you say I was calling you names? Reread the blog post above and think about it. Then reread your comment.
2. The last I saw, the entomology of the name Allah was still controversial. To think someone ignorant because they don't agree with your authorities is dangerous. I also consider entomology a red herring. Hel, (as anyone knows), is a goddess who presides over a very cold place. "Go to hell" is an ancient phrase cursing northmen to meet someone in a place that is frozen over.
3. The suras in the Koran aren't in historical order. The later ones, historically, can abrogate the earlier, if I'm not mistaken. I'm speaking off the top of my head, but I'm thinking you are citing earlier ones that have been abrogated by later ones. It just isn't as simple as you seem to believe. I have apologized in forums for less.
BTW, I have read the Koran in several different translations, but I still consider myself a very ignorant man.
Let's assume that the Koran is as horrible as been thought. How do Christians respond? Any differently than, say, Leninism? Nazism? Warm fuzzyism?
Betsy (of the first comment above) — Is there a particular one of Girard's books relating to the ideas you refer to that you'd recommend? I want to take a look at his work — where should I start?
God has always had a righteous remnant. It is small in comparison to the overall church, but there are a few who have not bowed the knee to hatred.
Hang in there Julie. Not all of us think the way that the people who send you hate mail do.
It is a very confusing world, with the ever widening ability of people to post their feelings on any and every thing. My room mate and I were saying this morning that trying to work through all the input is liken to trying to comb out the "rats nests" in our dogs long and fine coat. Very difficult.
Dave:
I didn't call bigdek1234 an ignoramus. That would have been name-calling. I said he was ignorant about Islam while at the same time claiming not to be. Context is important, isn't it?
I don't claim to be an authority on Islam either, and I would plead ignorance as well. However, I seek to learn more, and I try not to approach the topic with the presupposition that it's evil and full of lies and hatred. It seems to me that this is what bigdek1234 is doing. Maybe I was a bit hard on him, but when I run into someone who seems to believe that he/she has a subject as complex and as intricate as Islam all figured out–and that there's therefore no reason to learn more about it–I do tend to react rather strongly.
"Hel, (as anyone knows), is a goddess who presides over a very cold place." I never heard that before. Furthermore, if my etymology of Allah is suspect, why then do Arabic-speaking Christians use it? If they thought that it was the name of some pagan Arab god, wouldn't they have found another word to use? Some have tried to find a cognate relationship between illah and the Hebrew elohim. That one is clearly suspect.
I don't know whether the suras I quoted from are earlier or later. But I picked them out of a book written by an Islamic authority, My Mercy Encompasses All: The Koran's Teachings on Compassion, Peace & Love, by Reza Shah-Kazemi. I doubt whether he would have selected verses that he considers to be abrogated. Also, I am not sure, but I believe that the issue of abrogation is controversial and that there is no universal consensus as to which verses abrogate which others.
You are right that the suras in the Qur'an aren't arranged in strict historical order; nevertheless, the earliest suras tend to be the shorter, more poetic ones that are found in the latter part of the Qur'an. These are the ones that Michael Sells takes us through in his book (from Sura 81, At-takvir, through to the end. Sells' book is subtitled "The Early Revelations").
As far as how Christians should respond, I would say this. If Islam is truly as evil as bigdek1234 claims, wouldn't we still do better by trying to befriend Muslims and getting to know them as individual human beings made in God's image, learning of their hopes and desires? Wouldn't this approach, along with openness to learn more about their faith, as opposed to simply denouncing it as full of evil and hate, be more likely to give us the chance to share our own faith with?
Peace,
Don
Julie – you seem like a nice lady, so no disrespect, BUT you and the Sojourners talking about hate is like the pot calling the kettle black. The vitriol and hate that I have seen directed a Glen Beck on this blog and the Sojourner website in particular makes me realize that this is not Christianity – I don't know what it is, but it is not Christianity.
Emily:
I would like to challenge you to offering some specific examples of where either Julie or Sojourners have expressed hatred toward Glen Beck. They have vigorously disagreed with him–both the content of his messages and the way Beck delivers them–and I think that perhaps Sojourners (especially) has gone a bit overboard in their coverage of Beck (how many postings have been specifically about Beck since he began his screed against social justice Christianity?). But vigorous disagreement does not constitute hatred.
The burden of proof is on you–give us some quotes from either Sojourners or Julie that indicate hatred toward Glen Beck.
Don,
I hope that Dave doesn't mind you confusing me with him. Sorry, Dave! Your friends still know you.
> why then do Arabic-speaking Christians use [Allah]?
As I said, I think etymology is a red-herring. We do not need to care where a word comes from. If you think differently, please be informed that the word 'nickel' traces back to 'devil' and send yours on to me. I would hate for you to cling to devils. (I love etymology.)
I will not argue that saying "you are so, so ignorant" to someone is or is not name-calling. I do know that many times when I say that I am an ignorant man (which, literally, I am) I am told that it has highly negative connotations and I should NOT (the emphasis is theirs) say that of myself, much less others. I also suspect that it was what bigdek was thinking about when he said you were name-calling. Cultural context is important too.
> I do tend to react rather strongly
And so do I. But I hope I always catch myself, confess, and change to thoughtful gentleness.
Now, note your final paragraph in your comment to me. Shouldn't this have been your argument instead of meeting (what you consider) ignorance with (self-confessed) ignorance? and this within a blog post where "reacting rather strongly" is the point? If you would give an ear to a Thug, shouldn't you also listen gently to one who states he is of your faith? Even assuming that he is an ignorant red-neck? (I would wonder how you would fare with my schizophrenic sister-in-Christ?)
Finally, is there anything I wrote that is harsh? Is it strongly stated? Is it clearly stated?
I always strive for that last (and often fail miserably). Please forgive me if not.
blessings,
David (I'm sorry I confused you with someone else!):
Thanks for your comments and your willingness to provide some needed correction. Just a few thoughts more.
Etymology is certainly not a red herring at all, at least not in this case, precisely because bigdek1234 brought it up initially:
"Allah is the name of the Islamic god – it was never the Arabic word for 'God' … Every time you read the word 'God' in an Associated Press article emanating from the Islamic world, know that they are unwittingly propagating this deception. Muslims have a perfectly good word for 'god' and they use it with great regularity. They say, 'There is no ilah but Allah, and Muhammad is His Messenger.'”
Since bigdek's assertion is so clearly incomplete, it needed to be corrected: specifically, that the only difference between illah and Allah is the addition of the definite article.
Yes, I should have used as my central argument that we'll go much further by loving on Muslims rather than condemning their religion, whatever we might think about it. No doubt about it. However, in my initial response to bigded1234, I did write, "At the very least, we ought to try and understand Islam the way Muslims understand it before we begin to criticize it–so we aren’t attacking straw men."
Maybe that word 'ignorant' got in the way and bigdek didn't see or recognize what I wrote because the reaction I received to that initial reply began with this statement: "no ignorance regarding islam here my friend". So while you and I freely admit our need and desire to learn more about Islam, our friend bigdek was asserting that he already knows everything that he needs to know. That, and the apparent fact that he really didn't "hear" what I had written, was what I reacted to, I suppose. Yes, I should have waited and thought it out before responding, but that's easier to recognize in retrospect–time is frequently in short supply when one is multi-tasking!
Don,
Don't apologize to me! I'm sure Dave is far above me, so you could only have flattered me. If he knew me, he might have the shock of his life.
going on.
I'm deaf. I have no dog in the Glenn Beck fight and only heard of him in the last month or so in hateful ways AND wiki'ed him today—I know now I don't agree with his theology. Therefore I took up the challenge you posed to Emily but with a twist. Could I find something that was unloving and un-Christlike in Sojourners?
I found it interesting about the email bomb (they knew that people were "literally overflowing his inbox" yet did not discourage sending.) Is this kind? Can you imagine Christ purposely stepping in front of Glenn Beck and making him walk around him?
I found "Glenn Beck Co-opting the Steps of the Lincoln Memorial" by Ruth Hawley-Lowry 07-27-2010. 'Co-opt', of course, is loaded, but not strongly enough to do more than lift my eyebrow. Then she writes:
I'm not sure what the author was referring to here, but it doesn't sound like irony. Further down she writes:
Sounds like she is co-opting and complaining that someone else is doing the same.
I also noted loaded words in "This Isn’t About Wallis vs. Beck–It’s About Biblical Social Justice" by Jim Wallis 04-14-2010, but will not list them. I don't know who Wallis is, but am not impressed by the post.
I checked out Julie Clawson's blog posts and found them mainly clean from put-downs of Mr. Beck. I don't agree with everything she says, though, and, like Jeff Young, consider that last paragraph of "A Neighborless Christianity" something to caution about.
I couldn't find "vitriol and hate" though.
Here is my conclusion. When one espouses a cause, one must also listen to his own words and analyze them as well as his opponent's. I'm sure, Don, that you will not see the same thing I saw–and I'm also well aware how my own mind tricks me. Going back to the initial thought of this blog post, we should be well aware that words can be used to heal or hurt. And words that do not intentionally heal can unintentionally hinder. That is hate, in my mind.
I hope these are healing words.
blessings,
"BUT you and the Sojourners talking about hate is like the pot calling the kettle black"
I totally agree Emily. I think perhaps because of the passion behind the issues , the name calling gets intense. It apears to go from name calling , rejecting the sincerity of the others view, to being a victim and of course your side understanding the scriptures better
then the other side . We always forget the lessons of the those who were experts in the understanding of scripture in the times of Christ used it for spreading love or controling the situation ?
Soujourners points out the racist elements of the Tea Party members. Recently They use a blog speaking about the political views of Beck as rejecting the cross. Then the blog is filled in with some tightly wound individuals mocking Mormonism and such . I do disagree with the teology of Mormonism , I am an Evangelical Christian . But to use it in a political dogfight the disagreement in theology is beyond hate , that is mocking Christ and forgetting His sacrifice and using it to gain a political gotcha . I think Julia sounds like a kind hearted lady also who perhaps in the name of her strong beliefs in regards to defending the mis treatment of women and such has perhaps forgotten how her comments may sound at times to those unaware or without her philopsy of life .
Bring us back to the Mosk . Too many people who have been hurt by 9/11 will see this as throwing sand in their face . I would hope that Muslims behind this , the people in charge of building this mosk will come to a understanding that perhaps their heart was in the right place " if that is the case" but their timing is off.
David Smith I was reading your comments, you are a man who appears to have had God dish out an abundance of wisdom upon . The church needs more people who when they see a Christian , they don't see an Emergent, Evangelical, religious left or whatever Christian with them , they just need to see Christ . That is what makes Christians appealing to the world , representing Christ . God Bless you .
I fist read Julie when she did a review of the movie Fireproof. Basically a low budget Christian movie that received more then usual success in the mainstream media. A couple going through divorce, and the man in the movie going through divorce receives a request from his father to follow a 30 day quest , basically just new and different ways to shower his wife with love and unconditional love regardless if she appreciates or acknowledges it . Julie not a movie critic gave it a thumbs down and explained it such a way that you would think it was anti women or marriage ? Was not sure, but the others in the blog supported her and thanked her . I could not figure it out . The majority of Christians took it as a movie with the valuable lesson of men loving their spouses as Christ loved the church . Hard to top that ? Even study guides were sold to help marriages .
In any case hard to have a good conversation when one side is said to be based in hate and one side is being the victim . Especially when one side has had its own human steps it has followed to try to cheapen the other side in debates to advance their view.
Best way I think in discussing these things is not to discuss them as though you are represnting a specfic group , or stereotype those who disagree, but as though you have Jesus Christ right along side of you . So if I disagree with what you have to say , I will not disagree with who you are .
Anyway I thought you did this , it was refreshing .
Julie, I always enjoy what you have to say and look forward to finding one on sojo.net. Keep up the good work!
To be clear, that other "Mick" was not me. I always use my whole name.
Did humanity learn nothing from kristallnacht? This makes my heart grieve.
Well said, Julie.
I think it is achievable, in the name of Christ, to wholeheartedly accept someone for who they are and the value they bring to the world, without needing to completely agree with every facet of their life or being. If the respect for one's being is there, I believe the church can and will build bridges. It's so hard to explain how love is bigger then the technicalities we add to it sometimes.
Well, my slightly holier-than-thou sermonette/comment that I just tried to write here got vaporized by my pressing the wrong combination of buttons on my tiny keyboard before I completely finished typing the comment. I'll take that as a sign from God that maybe I shouldn't have shared it.
But the gist of it was this … Emily, if you're still reading this thread, I am prepared to admit something to you.
If I'm honest in considering my feelings of unrelenting anger and frustration toward people who espouse views similar to those of Glenn Beck, then I admit it. I hate Glenn Beck.
I shouldn't. Hating him and his views goes against everything I aspire to and against everything that Christ taught. It is poisonous, unproductive, and massively distracting to living out my calling.
But I feel the feeling. I feel a similar feeling every time I drive by a church sign near my neighborhood that reads "Exposure to the Son may prevent burning." I feel like smashing the sign with rocks. I feel like defacing all such expressions of Christianity because I hate them passionately and am disgusted by the message they convey to my kids.
I pray every day I will not ever act on those feelings. I will endeavor to remain Christlike in my behavior even though I find it impossible to remain Christlike in my heart. But I'll never be able to actually live up to that on my own power. Because yeah, the hatred is too strong. But with God's grace, I can see you as my sister. I can see Glenn Beck as my brother. I can get past it through the power of the Spirit.
But I am convinced Julie's point is correct. I feel it. You feel it. We all feel it, and the culture of our nation AND most churches within it are only turning up the heat making it all the more difficult. We can't ignore it, and we won't get anywhere blaming the Other for whatever we're feeling. That applies to me as much as anyone, so I'm no better. Let's try harder.
@Mick Bradley
I'm curious. Why does “Exposure to the Son may prevent burning.” anger you? The bad word play?
@David,
I think that getting into a paradigm debate with you would be threadjacking. suffice to say that whether the "salvation from Hell" stuff is true or not, I personally have lots of hateful feelings and bad memories of how focusing on that approach ruined lots of opportunities for fellowship, community, and healing.