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	<title>Comments on: International Women&#039;s Day</title>
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	<link>http://julieclawson.com/2010/03/08/international-womens-day-2/</link>
	<description>incantations at the edge of uncertainty</description>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2010/03/08/international-womens-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-7217</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 May 2010 13:19:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1438#comment-7217</guid>
		<description>Women must enable other women to look beyond the framework of the deficient education that men are given that intimidation, strength, and coercion is sufficient for living. That wrong message to men destroys their potential and leads them onto a path defined by the Darwinian notions of &quot;survival of the fittest,&quot; that pits man against man in his struggle for survival. 

It greatly underestimates what men are capable of, and offers a robotic perspective of the world that doesn&#039;t exist except in war games.

Life is not meant to be a war for anyone, but the infusion of this deception makes it become a war for everyone. 

Women teaching women that men can and should be expected to produce more than this simplistic view of the universe is one of the greatest gifts women can give each other, and one of the greatest gifts women can give to men - so they may develop their potential that lies beneath the surface of what male hierarchies have defined as the most males can do. 

Pushing males beyond the ordinary limits of culture means to give them wings of their own making, and wings worthy of having because they are self made. In turn, they offer wings to women. History confirms that among human relations, this has always been true.

Helping men to impress themselves by knowing their own hearts is what women were put on earth to do - to help release the male within his ordinary confines.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Women must enable other women to look beyond the framework of the deficient education that men are given that intimidation, strength, and coercion is sufficient for living. That wrong message to men destroys their potential and leads them onto a path defined by the Darwinian notions of &#034;survival of the fittest,&#034; that pits man against man in his struggle for survival. </p>
<p>It greatly underestimates what men are capable of, and offers a robotic perspective of the world that doesn&#039;t exist except in war games.</p>
<p>Life is not meant to be a war for anyone, but the infusion of this deception makes it become a war for everyone. </p>
<p>Women teaching women that men can and should be expected to produce more than this simplistic view of the universe is one of the greatest gifts women can give each other, and one of the greatest gifts women can give to men &#8211; so they may develop their potential that lies beneath the surface of what male hierarchies have defined as the most males can do. </p>
<p>Pushing males beyond the ordinary limits of culture means to give them wings of their own making, and wings worthy of having because they are self made. In turn, they offer wings to women. History confirms that among human relations, this has always been true.</p>
<p>Helping men to impress themselves by knowing their own hearts is what women were put on earth to do &#8211; to help release the male within his ordinary confines.</p>
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		<title>By: Cindy</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2010/03/08/international-womens-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-6888</link>
		<dc:creator>Cindy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 19:21:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1438#comment-6888</guid>
		<description>This is a really wonderful discussion.  Thanks Julie, everyone.  Sarah mentioned, and I think its a really good point, that in a patriarchal culture (or colonial for that matter) the oppressor is also being harmed in the relationship.  Now, clearly, the immediate harm falls upon those who are being diminished and unheard.  But, the long term consequences of bullying and even just turning a blind eye towards injustice means suffering a whole world of lost opportunities and missed deeper relationships.

This is also really applicable to development work (my thing).  Good, transformational relational development recognizes and learns from the other&#039;s strengths and capacities.  If one goes in on a white horse carrying a white flag,  somethings gonna be missed, the view is just too far away from the back of a horse...and too far removed from the lovely things happening on the ground.  Sorry, that was a tangent...the strength in respectful, transformational relationship is just an exceedingly better way.

Cindy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a really wonderful discussion.  Thanks Julie, everyone.  Sarah mentioned, and I think its a really good point, that in a patriarchal culture (or colonial for that matter) the oppressor is also being harmed in the relationship.  Now, clearly, the immediate harm falls upon those who are being diminished and unheard.  But, the long term consequences of bullying and even just turning a blind eye towards injustice means suffering a whole world of lost opportunities and missed deeper relationships.</p>
<p>This is also really applicable to development work (my thing).  Good, transformational relational development recognizes and learns from the other&#039;s strengths and capacities.  If one goes in on a white horse carrying a white flag,  somethings gonna be missed, the view is just too far away from the back of a horse&#8230;and too far removed from the lovely things happening on the ground.  Sorry, that was a tangent&#8230;the strength in respectful, transformational relationship is just an exceedingly better way.</p>
<p>Cindy</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2010/03/08/international-womens-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-6886</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Mar 2010 06:25:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1438#comment-6886</guid>
		<description>I should have invited you to the viewing of Iron Jawed Angels we had tonight! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0338139/quotes Powerful movie about the fight for women&#039;s right to vote (even if it was an HBO dramatization). E-mail if you&#039;re interested in borrowing it. I live right down the road from you...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should have invited you to the viewing of Iron Jawed Angels we had tonight! <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0338139/quotes" rel="nofollow">http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0338139/quotes</a> Powerful movie about the fight for women&#039;s right to vote (even if it was an HBO dramatization). E-mail if you&#039;re interested in borrowing it. I live right down the road from you&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Alex (Handy Backup team)</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2010/03/08/international-womens-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-6882</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex (Handy Backup team)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Mar 2010 06:41:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1438#comment-6882</guid>
		<description>It is interesting to understand that in many countries where International Women&#039;s Day is celebrated it is definitely not a political event, but rather a sort of a mixture of Mother&#039;s Day and St. Valentine&#039;s Day. But still it&#039;s a beautiful day to express your appreciation and love to the women in your life. And it&#039;s great that the tradition to give tulips and gifts is not just a &quot;home&quot; event, but many companies hold celebrations in their offices the day before IWD (since in many countries it&#039;s an official holiday). It&#039;s a really warm day when you can do your best to your women: e.g. for our company’s ladies I’ve shot a creative greeting video (you can see it in my blog) which made them very happy.

And it&#039;s funny, I was surprised to find out that International Women’s Day is also celebrated in other countries that just Russia and CIS countries. I thought that it was something taken from Soviet culture and not celebrated anywhere else, and when I found several notes about it at whitehouse.gov on the official White House blog, it was so cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is interesting to understand that in many countries where International Women&#039;s Day is celebrated it is definitely not a political event, but rather a sort of a mixture of Mother&#039;s Day and St. Valentine&#039;s Day. But still it&#039;s a beautiful day to express your appreciation and love to the women in your life. And it&#039;s great that the tradition to give tulips and gifts is not just a &#034;home&#034; event, but many companies hold celebrations in their offices the day before IWD (since in many countries it&#039;s an official holiday). It&#039;s a really warm day when you can do your best to your women: e.g. for our company’s ladies I’ve shot a creative greeting video (you can see it in my blog) which made them very happy.</p>
<p>And it&#039;s funny, I was surprised to find out that International Women’s Day is also celebrated in other countries that just Russia and CIS countries. I thought that it was something taken from Soviet culture and not celebrated anywhere else, and when I found several notes about it at whitehouse.gov on the official White House blog, it was so cool.</p>
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		<title>By: Caedmon</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2010/03/08/international-womens-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-6877</link>
		<dc:creator>Caedmon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 19:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1438#comment-6877</guid>
		<description>I confess. I do struggle with this. I don&#039;t mean that I struggle with what you have to say, Julie, but that there are times where I do feel threatened, there are times when I don&#039;t really want justice for others because I think it means &quot;losing&quot; my place at the head of the line. I struggle with conversations where I&#039;m told that as a white, American male, I have had my turn and am no longer allowed a voice - I know that to be an overreaction that replaces oppressor with oppressed rather than eliminates oppression. I struggle daily with desiring the fullness of Jesus&#039; love and compassion and dignity for every person and every creature and all of God&#039;s creation against old ways of thinking that don&#039;t believe there is really enough manna to go around. I hate that the church I am a member of has and continues to be a source of discrimination and abuse. 

I look forward with great hope and expectation to the day when we - as a church and as the human race - realize God gives more abundantly than we will ever imagine and that there is no shortage. I look forward to the day we place special days on our calendar for both men and women, kids and parents, cultures and ethnic groups of all sorts, solely out of thanksgiving for one another and not because it is the only way we will recognize every part of God&#039;s creation as worthy.

I do feel threatened - because every change is a threat - but as long as injustice exists, I need to be threatened.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I confess. I do struggle with this. I don&#039;t mean that I struggle with what you have to say, Julie, but that there are times where I do feel threatened, there are times when I don&#039;t really want justice for others because I think it means &#034;losing&#034; my place at the head of the line. I struggle with conversations where I&#039;m told that as a white, American male, I have had my turn and am no longer allowed a voice &#8211; I know that to be an overreaction that replaces oppressor with oppressed rather than eliminates oppression. I struggle daily with desiring the fullness of Jesus&#039; love and compassion and dignity for every person and every creature and all of God&#039;s creation against old ways of thinking that don&#039;t believe there is really enough manna to go around. I hate that the church I am a member of has and continues to be a source of discrimination and abuse. </p>
<p>I look forward with great hope and expectation to the day when we &#8211; as a church and as the human race &#8211; realize God gives more abundantly than we will ever imagine and that there is no shortage. I look forward to the day we place special days on our calendar for both men and women, kids and parents, cultures and ethnic groups of all sorts, solely out of thanksgiving for one another and not because it is the only way we will recognize every part of God&#039;s creation as worthy.</p>
<p>I do feel threatened &#8211; because every change is a threat &#8211; but as long as injustice exists, I need to be threatened.</p>
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		<title>By: Existential Punk</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2010/03/08/international-womens-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-6876</link>
		<dc:creator>Existential Punk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 17:38:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1438#comment-6876</guid>
		<description>Thanks for posting about this. You are certainly right in saying, &#039;But the fact remains, if women truly were treated as equals, valued for our contributions, respected for our ideas, and not assumed to be inferior or incapable in any way, then there would not need to be a day to bring attention to the achievements of women.&#039;

EP</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for posting about this. You are certainly right in saying, &#039;But the fact remains, if women truly were treated as equals, valued for our contributions, respected for our ideas, and not assumed to be inferior or incapable in any way, then there would not need to be a day to bring attention to the achievements of women.&#039;</p>
<p>EP</p>
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		<title>By: Julie Clawson</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2010/03/08/international-womens-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-6875</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie Clawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:48:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1438#comment-6875</guid>
		<description>Sins - 
What I find interesting is that you think you not getting hired as a waiter in a sports bar for not having boobs is about women&#039;s rights.  Sure only women are given that job, but only so that they can continue to be oppressed and reduced to their bodies.  Are you saying you want the right to be objectified and treated as just a pleasure toy?  Seriously?

The world is sexist, and yes we women have to fight it still.  I&#039;m not going to tell my kids to stop fighting injustice if it still exists just because some might take it the wrong way or some men feel threatened.  And I don&#039;t accept &quot;that&#039;s just the way the world is&quot; arguments.  The world is a lot of crappy things - that doesn&#039;t mean they can&#039;t be changed.  I don&#039;t give up that easily.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sins &#8211;<br />
What I find interesting is that you think you not getting hired as a waiter in a sports bar for not having boobs is about women&#039;s rights.  Sure only women are given that job, but only so that they can continue to be oppressed and reduced to their bodies.  Are you saying you want the right to be objectified and treated as just a pleasure toy?  Seriously?</p>
<p>The world is sexist, and yes we women have to fight it still.  I&#039;m not going to tell my kids to stop fighting injustice if it still exists just because some might take it the wrong way or some men feel threatened.  And I don&#039;t accept &#034;that&#039;s just the way the world is&#034; arguments.  The world is a lot of crappy things &#8211; that doesn&#039;t mean they can&#039;t be changed.  I don&#039;t give up that easily.</p>
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		<title>By: Sins Of Fathers</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2010/03/08/international-womens-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-6873</link>
		<dc:creator>Sins Of Fathers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 11:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1438#comment-6873</guid>
		<description>I figured someone would backlash at my comments.

I going to step out onto a limb here, a very fragile limb I might add, hanging over a cliff of certain doom.

Although I will come out and say it.

I&#039;m going to quote, and I wish some men would come here and back me up a little on what I am about to say.  

Julie, thank you for your reply, it is insightful and welcomed.

I don&#039;t see advances made by women at all threatening.  I am a school teacher and I&#039;ll tell you Women do my job WAY better than I can.

I was raised by two women, only 2 women. I have the deepest respect for them. As I was taught.

your quote .&quot;That takes sacrifice, that takes humility. This is the world women are fighting for – not to humiliate or dominate men, but to work together without fear.&quot;

1.   Thank you for stating this, that is what I was talking about.  You don&#039;t want to dominate men.  I agree most women are very well attuned to this idea and follow through.
2.   Women my age use the argument of &#039;women s rights&#039; to control workplace and relationships. (In my younger years I worked at Sports bars. for 8 years.  I could never get moved to a waiter position simply because I don&#039;t have the required &#039;tools&#039;)
3.  I&#039;m sorry if you feel my message was threatening. That was not my intention.
4. The world we live in today, I&#039;m sorry to say, will never have equality, not just between sexes but also race, age, social status and of course wealth.  Of course that for another &quot;Forum&quot;

You fear men will feel chastised by advancing women and try to reaffirm their ridiculous notion of power.  I agree.  

My key point is, through the fight for rights as a women.  You might be sending the wrong message to younger generations that they should step all over men to get want you want. 

Consequences??  Who cares, if you get what you want? Fight for your rights as a woman!!

If I walked into a company with another women, looking for the same job.

I went to the interview and said if you don&#039;t hire me instead of that woman I&#039;ll tell the courts and media you are sexist and didn&#039;t hire me because I&#039;m a man.  (Proceed Laughing)

Woman says the same thing, they might have to think twice about it.

This is what I mean.  This is the way of the world.  Once we can abolish currency.
 Nothing will change, or it just might get worse. 

To reiterate... I mean no hostility.  I&#039;ve thought this for a while. I just want to see a womans  perspective to this. 

P.S. I am not religious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I figured someone would backlash at my comments.</p>
<p>I going to step out onto a limb here, a very fragile limb I might add, hanging over a cliff of certain doom.</p>
<p>Although I will come out and say it.</p>
<p>I&#039;m going to quote, and I wish some men would come here and back me up a little on what I am about to say.  </p>
<p>Julie, thank you for your reply, it is insightful and welcomed.</p>
<p>I don&#039;t see advances made by women at all threatening.  I am a school teacher and I&#039;ll tell you Women do my job WAY better than I can.</p>
<p>I was raised by two women, only 2 women. I have the deepest respect for them. As I was taught.</p>
<p>your quote .&#034;That takes sacrifice, that takes humility. This is the world women are fighting for – not to humiliate or dominate men, but to work together without fear.&#034;</p>
<p>1.   Thank you for stating this, that is what I was talking about.  You don&#039;t want to dominate men.  I agree most women are very well attuned to this idea and follow through.<br />
2.   Women my age use the argument of &#039;women s rights&#039; to control workplace and relationships. (In my younger years I worked at Sports bars. for 8 years.  I could never get moved to a waiter position simply because I don&#039;t have the required &#039;tools&#039;)<br />
3.  I&#039;m sorry if you feel my message was threatening. That was not my intention.<br />
4. The world we live in today, I&#039;m sorry to say, will never have equality, not just between sexes but also race, age, social status and of course wealth.  Of course that for another &#034;Forum&#034;</p>
<p>You fear men will feel chastised by advancing women and try to reaffirm their ridiculous notion of power.  I agree.  </p>
<p>My key point is, through the fight for rights as a women.  You might be sending the wrong message to younger generations that they should step all over men to get want you want. </p>
<p>Consequences??  Who cares, if you get what you want? Fight for your rights as a woman!!</p>
<p>If I walked into a company with another women, looking for the same job.</p>
<p>I went to the interview and said if you don&#039;t hire me instead of that woman I&#039;ll tell the courts and media you are sexist and didn&#039;t hire me because I&#039;m a man.  (Proceed Laughing)</p>
<p>Woman says the same thing, they might have to think twice about it.</p>
<p>This is what I mean.  This is the way of the world.  Once we can abolish currency.<br />
 Nothing will change, or it just might get worse. </p>
<p>To reiterate&#8230; I mean no hostility.  I&#039;ve thought this for a while. I just want to see a womans  perspective to this. </p>
<p>P.S. I am not religious.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie Clawson</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2010/03/08/international-womens-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-6871</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie Clawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 02:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1438#comment-6871</guid>
		<description>Sarah - fantastic question</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarah &#8211; fantastic question</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2010/03/08/international-womens-day-2/comment-page-1/#comment-6870</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 22:15:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1438#comment-6870</guid>
		<description>What a refreshing perspective on women&#039;s rights. Perhaps, some of this male hostility stems from the unfulfilled &quot;rights&quot; that the current power structures have promised them. These perceived rights--to power, to rhetorical agency, etc-- lose some of their cache when shared equitably. A question that I have been pondering: Who is more oppressed, those who are openly oppressed by the systems of power; or those(i.e. men buying into patriarchy) who are oppressed by the same system and do not know?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a refreshing perspective on women&#039;s rights. Perhaps, some of this male hostility stems from the unfulfilled &#034;rights&#034; that the current power structures have promised them. These perceived rights&#8211;to power, to rhetorical agency, etc&#8211; lose some of their cache when shared equitably. A question that I have been pondering: Who is more oppressed, those who are openly oppressed by the systems of power; or those(i.e. men buying into patriarchy) who are oppressed by the same system and do not know?</p>
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