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	<title>Comments on: Is Intellectualism Arrogant?</title>
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		<title>By: Karl</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/24/is-intellectualism-arrogant/comment-page-1/#comment-5431</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1208#comment-5431</guid>
		<description>Mike (16), that&#039;s a good challenging point.  I go back and forth on how much I think intellectual habits of thought are taught or learned, vs. how much is a matter of personality and genetics.  I don&#039;t think it&#039;s an either-or.  I agree the capacity to wrestle with complex questions and important issues is in some degree present in everyone and can be developed.  But I also think temperament and personality often play a role in how much a given person pursues intellectual ways of thinking once exposed to them (or sometimes, with very little exposure at all).  

Relatedly, we can also think in terms of people who have the temperament of the specialist, vs. those with the temperament of the generalist.  The specialist wants to analyze, break down, and see the details.  The generalist wants to get to the point, hear the final take-away, cut to the chase and see something start happening, and is usually impatient with or bored by the specialist within 30 seconds of his beginning to talk.  It&#039;s not a clear cut either-or as we all may have some tendencies in both directions depending on the topic.  But most people do tend toward one of those more than the other.  I also think someone can have *either* of those temperaments and be an intellectual.  But the specialist&#039;s temperament is more likely to lead more people to wrestle with complexity more often, IMO, and it seems to me that more intellectuals (and maybe artists?) are specialists by temperament (hence the ever-more-atomized specialization of PhD work, for example).   

Memorizing arcane sports facts is actually not an intellectual activity, IMO.  No more so than memorizing a ton of names, dates and places and the multiplication table.  I guess it takes some degree of raw intelligence to memorize that much sheer data, but that doesn&#039;t mean someone is thinking &quot;intellectually&quot; about the topic.  The better sports-related analogy would be the sports fan who really wants to understand the X&#039;s and O&#039;s behind what she&#039;s watching - to be able to appreciate the complex game of chess with move followed by countermove going on between the respective coaches at a level that most fans are oblivious to - vs. the fan who just wants to sit and watch the game and yell for her team to win with no deeper understanding of what&#039;s going on beyond the very basics she was taught in grade school PE and is perfectly happy with that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike (16), that&#8217;s a good challenging point.  I go back and forth on how much I think intellectual habits of thought are taught or learned, vs. how much is a matter of personality and genetics.  I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s an either-or.  I agree the capacity to wrestle with complex questions and important issues is in some degree present in everyone and can be developed.  But I also think temperament and personality often play a role in how much a given person pursues intellectual ways of thinking once exposed to them (or sometimes, with very little exposure at all).  </p>
<p>Relatedly, we can also think in terms of people who have the temperament of the specialist, vs. those with the temperament of the generalist.  The specialist wants to analyze, break down, and see the details.  The generalist wants to get to the point, hear the final take-away, cut to the chase and see something start happening, and is usually impatient with or bored by the specialist within 30 seconds of his beginning to talk.  It&#8217;s not a clear cut either-or as we all may have some tendencies in both directions depending on the topic.  But most people do tend toward one of those more than the other.  I also think someone can have *either* of those temperaments and be an intellectual.  But the specialist&#8217;s temperament is more likely to lead more people to wrestle with complexity more often, IMO, and it seems to me that more intellectuals (and maybe artists?) are specialists by temperament (hence the ever-more-atomized specialization of PhD work, for example).   </p>
<p>Memorizing arcane sports facts is actually not an intellectual activity, IMO.  No more so than memorizing a ton of names, dates and places and the multiplication table.  I guess it takes some degree of raw intelligence to memorize that much sheer data, but that doesn&#8217;t mean someone is thinking &#8220;intellectually&#8221; about the topic.  The better sports-related analogy would be the sports fan who really wants to understand the X&#8217;s and O&#8217;s behind what she&#8217;s watching &#8211; to be able to appreciate the complex game of chess with move followed by countermove going on between the respective coaches at a level that most fans are oblivious to &#8211; vs. the fan who just wants to sit and watch the game and yell for her team to win with no deeper understanding of what&#8217;s going on beyond the very basics she was taught in grade school PE and is perfectly happy with that.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie Clawson</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/24/is-intellectualism-arrogant/comment-page-1/#comment-5430</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie Clawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 15:54:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1208#comment-5430</guid>
		<description>So I should apologize for ducking out of this conversation for a few days - I was at a church retreat (and the recovering/catching-up from the retreat).  I love the conversation that&#039;s going on here, and there is no way that I can comment on everything that I want to comment on.

PastorMack - You are right the anti-intellectualism isn&#039;t across the board in Christianity.  But even  in the evangelical circles where learning pseudo-science is intellectual activity, that isn&#039;t even universally accepted.  I recall being seen as elite and improper for attending the apologetics classes instead of the more emotional worship sessions or women&#039;s bible studies.  My friends called me a nerd, and the 5-7 of us doing the intellectual stuff were by far the minority (and I was always the only girl in those classes as well). 

Andy - great points.  We shouldn&#039;t have to dumb things down to the lowest common denominator. Sometimes we have to be who we are and be okay with that.

David - fascinating question about people being intimidated by artists.  I wonder though - has there ever been a time when artists were completely understand and accepted by mainstream society, or have they always stood apart in some sense?

Cassie - Thank you so much for responding here and for getting this conversation going in the first place.  I think because I am not in the world of literary criticism, I didn&#039;t automatically get your distinction that some people always separate form and content in art.  I understand the need to do so at times, but I also naturally just assume that a full engagement of a text or work of art will have to involve an assessment of its content as well as its form.  Perhaps I am just too pragmatic, but I see art as always doing something - be that conveying information or prompting a response - not just existing as an object that can be scientifically observed.  In engaging art we cannot help but be a part of its function (whatever that may be), no matter how hard we would like to simply stand above it and critique its form.  So that said, I believe we will always engage on some level the morality of a piece of art even if we simply are trying to engage the form.  So sometime we need the ugly art to act as a mirror of who we are and to critique our very selves.  It can be a glorification, or a condemnation, but will always be holistically engaged.

And I agree we should strive for humility in our intellectual pursuits.  But when does love of knowledge and curiosity cross the line into pride.  If I connect one piece of art to another and I feel the thrill of discovery - is that pride or joy?  I think it is a fine line, and I am most concerned with the implications of the caution itself.  It is too easy for others to accuse a person of pride when that person is simply finding joy in who God created them to be.  Even if one isn&#039;t elitist, they can easily be accused of being so and be forced to abandon who they are in order to dumb things down.  Its reach the point where as Bill said, all our church art is propaganda.  We have people heaping praise on Thomas Kinkade because they can easily understand him, and condemning anything more complicated as elitist.  So while I understand for critique (especially in the academic world), I think it would be more helpful to call the church to be more intellectual than to caution people not to be prideful in intelligence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So I should apologize for ducking out of this conversation for a few days &#8211; I was at a church retreat (and the recovering/catching-up from the retreat).  I love the conversation that&#8217;s going on here, and there is no way that I can comment on everything that I want to comment on.</p>
<p>PastorMack &#8211; You are right the anti-intellectualism isn&#8217;t across the board in Christianity.  But even  in the evangelical circles where learning pseudo-science is intellectual activity, that isn&#8217;t even universally accepted.  I recall being seen as elite and improper for attending the apologetics classes instead of the more emotional worship sessions or women&#8217;s bible studies.  My friends called me a nerd, and the 5-7 of us doing the intellectual stuff were by far the minority (and I was always the only girl in those classes as well). </p>
<p>Andy &#8211; great points.  We shouldn&#8217;t have to dumb things down to the lowest common denominator. Sometimes we have to be who we are and be okay with that.</p>
<p>David &#8211; fascinating question about people being intimidated by artists.  I wonder though &#8211; has there ever been a time when artists were completely understand and accepted by mainstream society, or have they always stood apart in some sense?</p>
<p>Cassie &#8211; Thank you so much for responding here and for getting this conversation going in the first place.  I think because I am not in the world of literary criticism, I didn&#8217;t automatically get your distinction that some people always separate form and content in art.  I understand the need to do so at times, but I also naturally just assume that a full engagement of a text or work of art will have to involve an assessment of its content as well as its form.  Perhaps I am just too pragmatic, but I see art as always doing something &#8211; be that conveying information or prompting a response &#8211; not just existing as an object that can be scientifically observed.  In engaging art we cannot help but be a part of its function (whatever that may be), no matter how hard we would like to simply stand above it and critique its form.  So that said, I believe we will always engage on some level the morality of a piece of art even if we simply are trying to engage the form.  So sometime we need the ugly art to act as a mirror of who we are and to critique our very selves.  It can be a glorification, or a condemnation, but will always be holistically engaged.</p>
<p>And I agree we should strive for humility in our intellectual pursuits.  But when does love of knowledge and curiosity cross the line into pride.  If I connect one piece of art to another and I feel the thrill of discovery &#8211; is that pride or joy?  I think it is a fine line, and I am most concerned with the implications of the caution itself.  It is too easy for others to accuse a person of pride when that person is simply finding joy in who God created them to be.  Even if one isn&#8217;t elitist, they can easily be accused of being so and be forced to abandon who they are in order to dumb things down.  Its reach the point where as Bill said, all our church art is propaganda.  We have people heaping praise on Thomas Kinkade because they can easily understand him, and condemning anything more complicated as elitist.  So while I understand for critique (especially in the academic world), I think it would be more helpful to call the church to be more intellectual than to caution people not to be prideful in intelligence.</p>
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		<title>By: Don</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/24/is-intellectualism-arrogant/comment-page-1/#comment-5428</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 01:33:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1208#comment-5428</guid>
		<description>Julie, I fully agree. God gave us our minds, after all. I would think he intended us to use them!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julie, I fully agree. God gave us our minds, after all. I would think he intended us to use them!</p>
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		<title>By: Cassie Falke</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/24/is-intellectualism-arrogant/comment-page-1/#comment-5424</link>
		<dc:creator>Cassie Falke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1208#comment-5424</guid>
		<description>Hi Julie,
I apologize if my anti-Kantianism came across as anti-intellectualism. That certainly was not my intention. I wouldn&#039;t be compfortable with a dichotomy that has humility equated with stupidity (or apathy) and arrogance equated with intelligence. 
I thought I might clarify a couple of things for the sake of advancing the lively conversation that was begun at Matter 09. First, I did admit to not liking ugly art. It&#039;s a personal bias, not a dogma. I only mention it because I recognize it might slant my position. My position, actually, and one of the points I had hoped to make at the conference, was that we should be cautious about separating form from content as Kant would have us to do. That means that if art glorifies morally repugnant activity, we as Christian critics need to take that (content) into account - even if the form of the art itself is excellent. That also means that art whose forms are so informed by specialized textual knowledge that those don&#039;t have access to that knowledge cannot access the content poses problems for Christian critics. We are instructed to be humble - not thoughtless, humble. For me that implies that if we enjoy a work of art because we enjoy &quot;getting&quot; the ways that it interacts with previous works of art in the genre, that&#039;s fine, but we shouldn&#039;t get puffed up about it. We are instructed to esteem ourselves in accordance with our faith, which hopefully, if we&#039;re wrestling witht he first commandment involves our minds as well as our hearts and souls.
Secondly,I&#039;m not dismissing abstract art here. I used Kandinksy illustrations throughout the presentation, and I live in a house full of challenging original art. But a point should be made here about the kind of challenge that art offers to us. Ideally art (whether it is composed by a Christian or a secular artist) will challenge a Christian viewer spiritually and intellectually. (Another point I made in the talk is that those two are not separate.) That&#039;s how we grow. It won&#039;t simply exercise our formal knowledge of the artwork&#039;s genre.
Hope that&#039;s helpful in some way. Keep up the thoughtful posts.
All best,
Cassie</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Julie,<br />
I apologize if my anti-Kantianism came across as anti-intellectualism. That certainly was not my intention. I wouldn&#8217;t be compfortable with a dichotomy that has humility equated with stupidity (or apathy) and arrogance equated with intelligence.<br />
I thought I might clarify a couple of things for the sake of advancing the lively conversation that was begun at Matter 09. First, I did admit to not liking ugly art. It&#8217;s a personal bias, not a dogma. I only mention it because I recognize it might slant my position. My position, actually, and one of the points I had hoped to make at the conference, was that we should be cautious about separating form from content as Kant would have us to do. That means that if art glorifies morally repugnant activity, we as Christian critics need to take that (content) into account &#8211; even if the form of the art itself is excellent. That also means that art whose forms are so informed by specialized textual knowledge that those don&#8217;t have access to that knowledge cannot access the content poses problems for Christian critics. We are instructed to be humble &#8211; not thoughtless, humble. For me that implies that if we enjoy a work of art because we enjoy &#8220;getting&#8221; the ways that it interacts with previous works of art in the genre, that&#8217;s fine, but we shouldn&#8217;t get puffed up about it. We are instructed to esteem ourselves in accordance with our faith, which hopefully, if we&#8217;re wrestling witht he first commandment involves our minds as well as our hearts and souls.<br />
Secondly,I&#8217;m not dismissing abstract art here. I used Kandinksy illustrations throughout the presentation, and I live in a house full of challenging original art. But a point should be made here about the kind of challenge that art offers to us. Ideally art (whether it is composed by a Christian or a secular artist) will challenge a Christian viewer spiritually and intellectually. (Another point I made in the talk is that those two are not separate.) That&#8217;s how we grow. It won&#8217;t simply exercise our formal knowledge of the artwork&#8217;s genre.<br />
Hope that&#8217;s helpful in some way. Keep up the thoughtful posts.<br />
All best,<br />
Cassie</p>
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		<title>By: Arrogance? &#171; e-lucidating</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/24/is-intellectualism-arrogant/comment-page-1/#comment-5423</link>
		<dc:creator>Arrogance? &#171; e-lucidating</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:51:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1208#comment-5423</guid>
		<description>[...] Clawson, at One Hand Clapping, has written an outstanding post entitled &#8220;Is Intellectualism Arrogant?&#8221;.  It resonates deeply with me.  It&#8217;s not too long&#8230;I encourage you to go check it [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Clawson, at One Hand Clapping, has written an outstanding post entitled &#8220;Is Intellectualism Arrogant?&#8221;.  It resonates deeply with me.  It&#8217;s not too long&#8230;I encourage you to go check it [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Clawson</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/24/is-intellectualism-arrogant/comment-page-1/#comment-5421</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Clawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Sep 2009 00:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1208#comment-5421</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure if I buy the implication of several folks here that there are some people who are just innately intellectual, and others who are not. It &lt;i&gt;might&lt;/i&gt; just be a personality thing, but, on the other hand, I think a lot of people are a lot smarter than we or they think they are. My evidence is the huge number of people I encounter all the time who appear to be &quot;dumb jocks&quot;, but who also have an astounding capacity to retain and understand mountains of arcane facts and details about all their favorite sports teams, rankings, statistics, players, etc. If they are capable of handling all that, why not more significant issues too? Personally I think it&#039;s more a matter of apathy than of ability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure if I buy the implication of several folks here that there are some people who are just innately intellectual, and others who are not. It <i>might</i> just be a personality thing, but, on the other hand, I think a lot of people are a lot smarter than we or they think they are. My evidence is the huge number of people I encounter all the time who appear to be &#8220;dumb jocks&#8221;, but who also have an astounding capacity to retain and understand mountains of arcane facts and details about all their favorite sports teams, rankings, statistics, players, etc. If they are capable of handling all that, why not more significant issues too? Personally I think it&#8217;s more a matter of apathy than of ability.</p>
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		<title>By: David Versluis</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/24/is-intellectualism-arrogant/comment-page-1/#comment-5420</link>
		<dc:creator>David Versluis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 21:23:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1208#comment-5420</guid>
		<description>The final plenary session, which Ms. Clawson refers to, ended with a very interesting discussion and passionate exchange of concerns and viewpoints. At the time I wasn’t able to but I wanted to add to the discussion that we as artists should realize that people are very intimidated by artists. This seems to be the case for the general public as well as many in the Christian church. And I’m not certain as to why that is. Has the faulty Renaissance notion of the artist as genus becomes so embedded in the public mind and have we, as artists, helped promote this stereotype? 

Practically speaking, in developing commissioned artwork and design, I’ve found it helpful to cultivate a spirit of humility by trying to listen very carefully to others. Listening seems to garner respect and trust, which has resulted at times in more imaginative work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The final plenary session, which Ms. Clawson refers to, ended with a very interesting discussion and passionate exchange of concerns and viewpoints. At the time I wasn’t able to but I wanted to add to the discussion that we as artists should realize that people are very intimidated by artists. This seems to be the case for the general public as well as many in the Christian church. And I’m not certain as to why that is. Has the faulty Renaissance notion of the artist as genus becomes so embedded in the public mind and have we, as artists, helped promote this stereotype? </p>
<p>Practically speaking, in developing commissioned artwork and design, I’ve found it helpful to cultivate a spirit of humility by trying to listen very carefully to others. Listening seems to garner respect and trust, which has resulted at times in more imaginative work.</p>
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		<title>By: Rebekah Wilkins-Pepiton</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/24/is-intellectualism-arrogant/comment-page-1/#comment-5419</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebekah Wilkins-Pepiton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 17:49:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1208#comment-5419</guid>
		<description>This is an interesting &amp; compelling conversation that we need to have in the church.  Although, it may have sounded like Cassie Falke said that we should not be academic in our approach, I think the meat of her discussion centered on empathy as viewer to art &amp; lack of arrogance as artists/intellectuals.  Arrogance in some respects is necessary to keep compelling work forward, but in our approach to others we should ALWAYS walk humbly.  Some denominations do this well &amp; others allow us to easily disengage our brains from religion/theology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an interesting &amp; compelling conversation that we need to have in the church.  Although, it may have sounded like Cassie Falke said that we should not be academic in our approach, I think the meat of her discussion centered on empathy as viewer to art &amp; lack of arrogance as artists/intellectuals.  Arrogance in some respects is necessary to keep compelling work forward, but in our approach to others we should ALWAYS walk humbly.  Some denominations do this well &amp; others allow us to easily disengage our brains from religion/theology.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer Wildeboer</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/24/is-intellectualism-arrogant/comment-page-1/#comment-5417</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Wildeboer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1208#comment-5417</guid>
		<description>To comment on what Mike said, I get told on a regular basis by church friends and family that I &quot;think too hard and should just accept things,&quot;  and while I know this can be a downfall for me (I believe, Lord, help my unbelief!) I value that in myself.  As part of the body of Christ, some people have to be gifted with great unrelenting faith and others have to be gifted with curiosity and analytical skills.  Some lucky people get both! We balance each other out as long as we respect each other.  It&#039;s the latter part that is so difficult, since being &quot;right&quot; is as important for the intellectual as it is for the anti-intellectual.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To comment on what Mike said, I get told on a regular basis by church friends and family that I &#8220;think too hard and should just accept things,&#8221;  and while I know this can be a downfall for me (I believe, Lord, help my unbelief!) I value that in myself.  As part of the body of Christ, some people have to be gifted with great unrelenting faith and others have to be gifted with curiosity and analytical skills.  Some lucky people get both! We balance each other out as long as we respect each other.  It&#8217;s the latter part that is so difficult, since being &#8220;right&#8221; is as important for the intellectual as it is for the anti-intellectual.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer Wildeboer</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/24/is-intellectualism-arrogant/comment-page-1/#comment-5416</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Wildeboer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:44:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1208#comment-5416</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s important to note that all things that involve intellectualism can be enjoyed in various layers.  I think some people are so insecure that they can&#039;t get to the deeper levels that they write things that are complex off altogether, rather than enjoying the layers that are accessible to them.  

I rather love the feeling when I understand a reference or a new layer that I would not have formerly comprehended.  I am a teacher, so I really love seeing students when this happens.  

It&#039;s just like going back in your late twenties and reading a book you read in high school and loved.  You still love it, but you understand it so much more deeply once you&#039;ve gained years of experience and education. 

I think if people would give things more of a chance and understand to the degree they can at the time, anti-intellectualism wouldn&#039;t be a problem because we would all be as intellectual as we each can on our own levels and take a moderate amount of pride in testing our limits. 

Can you tell I teach special ed?  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s important to note that all things that involve intellectualism can be enjoyed in various layers.  I think some people are so insecure that they can&#8217;t get to the deeper levels that they write things that are complex off altogether, rather than enjoying the layers that are accessible to them.  </p>
<p>I rather love the feeling when I understand a reference or a new layer that I would not have formerly comprehended.  I am a teacher, so I really love seeing students when this happens.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s just like going back in your late twenties and reading a book you read in high school and loved.  You still love it, but you understand it so much more deeply once you&#8217;ve gained years of experience and education. </p>
<p>I think if people would give things more of a chance and understand to the degree they can at the time, anti-intellectualism wouldn&#8217;t be a problem because we would all be as intellectual as we each can on our own levels and take a moderate amount of pride in testing our limits. </p>
<p>Can you tell I teach special ed?  <img src='http://julieclawson.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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