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	<title>Comments on: Moltmann Reflections 2</title>
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	<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/14/moltmann-reflections-2/</link>
	<description>incantations at the edge of uncertainty</description>
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		<title>By: Jason Barson</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/14/moltmann-reflections-2/comment-page-1/#comment-8393</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Barson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Jan 2011 09:05:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1185#comment-8393</guid>
		<description>Hey Julie, love your thoughts and agree with you that God is God and the gospel is the gospel. Thanks for sharing the informative concept. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Julie, love your thoughts and agree with you that God is God and the gospel is the gospel. Thanks for sharing the informative concept. <img src='http://julieclawson.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: brent</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/14/moltmann-reflections-2/comment-page-1/#comment-8174</link>
		<dc:creator>brent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Dec 2010 05:22:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1185#comment-8174</guid>
		<description>hi, i&#039;m a student at truett seminary and i&#039;m writing a paper about the christian response to homosexuality. the internet is abuzz with this lecture and moltmann&#039;s response, but there is not actual quote or link to a transcript that i can find. i even found two podcasts thru emergent village but neither includes this discussion, from what i heard. is there any place you could direct me to that would have the exact quotes of moltmann, where i could use it in my paper? thanks so much, brent</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hi, i&#039;m a student at truett seminary and i&#039;m writing a paper about the christian response to homosexuality. the internet is abuzz with this lecture and moltmann&#039;s response, but there is not actual quote or link to a transcript that i can find. i even found two podcasts thru emergent village but neither includes this discussion, from what i heard. is there any place you could direct me to that would have the exact quotes of moltmann, where i could use it in my paper? thanks so much, brent</p>
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		<title>By: barry ballard</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/14/moltmann-reflections-2/comment-page-1/#comment-6419</link>
		<dc:creator>barry ballard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jan 2010 17:39:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1185#comment-6419</guid>
		<description>i agree, that&#039;s why moltmann&#039;s work always transcends all liberation movements, which try to manipulate god.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=O7HXWT3J</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i agree, that&#039;s why moltmann&#039;s work always transcends all liberation movements, which try to manipulate god.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.megaupload.com/?d=O7HXWT3J" rel="nofollow">http://www.megaupload.com/?d=O7HXWT3J</a></p>
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		<title>By: Karl</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/14/moltmann-reflections-2/comment-page-1/#comment-5376</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:11:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1185#comment-5376</guid>
		<description>Julie, I agree that what you articulate (coexist in love and respect despite disagreements) is something we should strive to do a lot more often than we usually do in the church, but no I don&#039;t think it&#039;s always possible.  There are times when you have to make a decision for your particular body, and it&#039;s not tenable or fair to either side in the disagreement to try to just live and let live without addressing the situation with a decision.  I&#039;m not talking about kicking out individuals who privately disagree on the issue.  And I&#039;m not talking about failing to embrace and welcome gay people (since that&#039;s the issue we&#039;re talking about) into a church just like we would embrace and welcome a heterosexual into the church who has things in his/her life that we don&#039;t think are reflective of the Kingdom.  But in terms of deciding for example, who is eligible for leadership, or what is biblically normative, to be strived for, held up by the church as the standard even if we fall short of it.  You have to make a choice in those areas eventually.  

Especially when those arguing for a change in the church&#039;s historic teaching claim that this is a justice issue analogous to segregation, that it is a matter of justice that a married (or unionized, or whatever) gay person should be allowed to be a priest/pastor of our church, or in our denomination, and that the church should pronounce God&#039;s blessing on same-sex unions.  OK - we now aren&#039;t just coexisting, we have to make a decision and one side or the other is gravely in the wrong.  It makes me tremble as one who takes the traditional view, to acknowledge that for all my certainty, I may be the moral equivalent of an oppressive racist segregationist on this issue.  I hope that helps me walk humbly and speak as charitably as I can.  I hope it keeps me from being smug.  But I&#039;m still convinced in the end that the case hasn&#039;t been made for changing the church&#039;s teaching on the issue.  And it should make those on the progressive/revisionist side tremble too, to acknowledge that just maybe the church&#039;s millennia old teaching may be correct.  And then even after acknowledging all of that, we still have to decide - we can&#039;t just continue in limbo going along and getting along, not on this particular issue (and others).  

For me, this is coming out of the Episcopalian context in which those battles were very real, and the battle was being initiated, advanced and waged by the progressives/revisionists as a justice issue.  Change was the goal, not just live and let live and maintain the status quo.  It was very different from the evangelical context I grew up in and am now more or less back in.  In the evangelical context, discussion of this issue tended to be more exclusionary and self-righteous and consist of preaching to the choir about how bad everyone else was when in reality our evangelical body was in no danger of changing its traditional stance and really needed lessons on how to welcome and love gay people, even if we weren&#039;t going to change our stance on sexual morality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julie, I agree that what you articulate (coexist in love and respect despite disagreements) is something we should strive to do a lot more often than we usually do in the church, but no I don&#039;t think it&#039;s always possible.  There are times when you have to make a decision for your particular body, and it&#039;s not tenable or fair to either side in the disagreement to try to just live and let live without addressing the situation with a decision.  I&#039;m not talking about kicking out individuals who privately disagree on the issue.  And I&#039;m not talking about failing to embrace and welcome gay people (since that&#039;s the issue we&#039;re talking about) into a church just like we would embrace and welcome a heterosexual into the church who has things in his/her life that we don&#039;t think are reflective of the Kingdom.  But in terms of deciding for example, who is eligible for leadership, or what is biblically normative, to be strived for, held up by the church as the standard even if we fall short of it.  You have to make a choice in those areas eventually.  </p>
<p>Especially when those arguing for a change in the church&#039;s historic teaching claim that this is a justice issue analogous to segregation, that it is a matter of justice that a married (or unionized, or whatever) gay person should be allowed to be a priest/pastor of our church, or in our denomination, and that the church should pronounce God&#039;s blessing on same-sex unions.  OK &#8211; we now aren&#039;t just coexisting, we have to make a decision and one side or the other is gravely in the wrong.  It makes me tremble as one who takes the traditional view, to acknowledge that for all my certainty, I may be the moral equivalent of an oppressive racist segregationist on this issue.  I hope that helps me walk humbly and speak as charitably as I can.  I hope it keeps me from being smug.  But I&#039;m still convinced in the end that the case hasn&#039;t been made for changing the church&#039;s teaching on the issue.  And it should make those on the progressive/revisionist side tremble too, to acknowledge that just maybe the church&#039;s millennia old teaching may be correct.  And then even after acknowledging all of that, we still have to decide &#8211; we can&#039;t just continue in limbo going along and getting along, not on this particular issue (and others).  </p>
<p>For me, this is coming out of the Episcopalian context in which those battles were very real, and the battle was being initiated, advanced and waged by the progressives/revisionists as a justice issue.  Change was the goal, not just live and let live and maintain the status quo.  It was very different from the evangelical context I grew up in and am now more or less back in.  In the evangelical context, discussion of this issue tended to be more exclusionary and self-righteous and consist of preaching to the choir about how bad everyone else was when in reality our evangelical body was in no danger of changing its traditional stance and really needed lessons on how to welcome and love gay people, even if we weren&#039;t going to change our stance on sexual morality.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie Clawson</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/14/moltmann-reflections-2/comment-page-1/#comment-5367</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie Clawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 20:14:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1185#comment-5367</guid>
		<description>Karl - you are right that it does depend on context.  But I wonder if there are more options there between &quot;change&quot; and &quot;the smug.&quot;  Could it truly not be possible for a church to respect and love people enough that they&#039;ve decided to make this a non-issue?  It&#039;s not about feeling right or pushing change, but it getting beyond words and being with people.  Moltmann talked about this in relation to the eucharist - if we start with arguing what it means we will never reach the point where we break bread together, but if we start at the table and share with each other and then talk we are at an entirely different place.  Interestingly enough, Moltmann said he doesn&#039;t believe same-sex marriage is on the same level as heterosexual marriage, but he sees no reason for that to stand in the way of blessing the union.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karl &#8211; you are right that it does depend on context.  But I wonder if there are more options there between &#034;change&#034; and &#034;the smug.&#034;  Could it truly not be possible for a church to respect and love people enough that they&#039;ve decided to make this a non-issue?  It&#039;s not about feeling right or pushing change, but it getting beyond words and being with people.  Moltmann talked about this in relation to the eucharist &#8211; if we start with arguing what it means we will never reach the point where we break bread together, but if we start at the table and share with each other and then talk we are at an entirely different place.  Interestingly enough, Moltmann said he doesn&#039;t believe same-sex marriage is on the same level as heterosexual marriage, but he sees no reason for that to stand in the way of blessing the union.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/14/moltmann-reflections-2/comment-page-1/#comment-5365</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 17:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1185#comment-5365</guid>
		<description>I should add to my post above though, that context may matter.  

The necessity and manner of addressing a particular non-gospel issue like, for example, what the church should teach about homosexual practice and whether the church should sanction/bless homosexual unions, might be different in a church body or denomination where people are actively trying to change what the church historically teaches on the subject, than it is in a different church body or denomination, where there is little if any disagreement on the issue and the subject is just used to make everyone feel better about themselves and how &quot;right&quot; they are compared to others. In the latter context, I could see more where Moltmann&#039;s comments and approach might apply.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should add to my post above though, that context may matter.  </p>
<p>The necessity and manner of addressing a particular non-gospel issue like, for example, what the church should teach about homosexual practice and whether the church should sanction/bless homosexual unions, might be different in a church body or denomination where people are actively trying to change what the church historically teaches on the subject, than it is in a different church body or denomination, where there is little if any disagreement on the issue and the subject is just used to make everyone feel better about themselves and how &#034;right&#034; they are compared to others. In the latter context, I could see more where Moltmann&#039;s comments and approach might apply.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/14/moltmann-reflections-2/comment-page-1/#comment-5364</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 17:29:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1185#comment-5364</guid>
		<description>That strikes me as a cheap and easy side-step by Moltmann.  There&#039;s a big difference between saying one&#039;s salvation depends upon having a certain view on an issue such as homosexuality as if it&#039;s part of the gospel, vs. having to decide whether the church should change its historic position on homosexual practice - or any other issue.  Huge difference.  Not even in the same ballpark.  He sets up a straw man that represents the vocal fringe without ever really engaging the heart of the issue - an issue that is largely even an issue because of people who are pushing for a change in the church&#039;s historic position.

To quote David Mills, who is speaking here in the Episcopal/Anglican context:

&quot;To forestall the usual criticism that we are &quot;obsessed&quot; with sex, I should note that if orthodox Anglicans seem to talk too much about sex, it&#039;s not our fault. Of course some &quot;traditionalists&quot; are homophobic, and some organizations do raise money by trumpeting the horrors of homosexuality in a way that approaches gay bashing . . . [y]et I and my colleagues think far less about sex than the Bishop of Newark, Integrity, and the faculty of the Episcopal Divinity School . . . But if we tend to talk a lot about sex, we do so only because it is the aspect of biblical teaching most obviously challenged by our culture and powerful and vocal movements in the Episcopal Church. The use of sex is the question of the hour. To accuse orthodox Anglicans of being obsessed with sex is somewhat like accusing firemen in a city victimized by arsonists of being obsessed with fires.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That strikes me as a cheap and easy side-step by Moltmann.  There&#039;s a big difference between saying one&#039;s salvation depends upon having a certain view on an issue such as homosexuality as if it&#039;s part of the gospel, vs. having to decide whether the church should change its historic position on homosexual practice &#8211; or any other issue.  Huge difference.  Not even in the same ballpark.  He sets up a straw man that represents the vocal fringe without ever really engaging the heart of the issue &#8211; an issue that is largely even an issue because of people who are pushing for a change in the church&#039;s historic position.</p>
<p>To quote David Mills, who is speaking here in the Episcopal/Anglican context:</p>
<p>&#034;To forestall the usual criticism that we are &#034;obsessed&#034; with sex, I should note that if orthodox Anglicans seem to talk too much about sex, it&#039;s not our fault. Of course some &#034;traditionalists&#034; are homophobic, and some organizations do raise money by trumpeting the horrors of homosexuality in a way that approaches gay bashing . . . [y]et I and my colleagues think far less about sex than the Bishop of Newark, Integrity, and the faculty of the Episcopal Divinity School . . . But if we tend to talk a lot about sex, we do so only because it is the aspect of biblical teaching most obviously challenged by our culture and powerful and vocal movements in the Episcopal Church. The use of sex is the question of the hour. To accuse orthodox Anglicans of being obsessed with sex is somewhat like accusing firemen in a city victimized by arsonists of being obsessed with fires.&#034;</p>
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		<title>By: Julie Clawson</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/14/moltmann-reflections-2/comment-page-1/#comment-5362</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie Clawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 03:19:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1185#comment-5362</guid>
		<description>D - sorry to hear that.  On one hand both Stott and Moltmann are each different perspectives.  And for some of us this isn&#039;t &quot;political-correctness&quot; its about being faithful and loving our neighbor, silencing our perspective with such a dismissal isn&#039;t helpful or respectful to the dialogue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>D &#8211; sorry to hear that.  On one hand both Stott and Moltmann are each different perspectives.  And for some of us this isn&#039;t &#034;political-correctness&#034; its about being faithful and loving our neighbor, silencing our perspective with such a dismissal isn&#039;t helpful or respectful to the dialogue.</p>
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		<title>By: DAnderson</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/14/moltmann-reflections-2/comment-page-1/#comment-5361</link>
		<dc:creator>DAnderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 01:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1185#comment-5361</guid>
		<description>My guess is one will never see a perspective from someone like John Stott, another European, on a blog like this.  That&#039;s because there has been a paradigm shift in recent years to acomodate different &quot;perspectives.&quot;  Let me put it bluntly:  sexuality is NOT the same as race/culture.  And I know many African-Americans and other minorities agree.    

This&#039;ll be probably be the last time I blog here.  I get tired of the same old political-correctness.  I wonder what InterVarsity would say, since they&#039;ve been victims of this whole mentality on certain campuses...too bad</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My guess is one will never see a perspective from someone like John Stott, another European, on a blog like this.  That&#039;s because there has been a paradigm shift in recent years to acomodate different &#034;perspectives.&#034;  Let me put it bluntly:  sexuality is NOT the same as race/culture.  And I know many African-Americans and other minorities agree.    </p>
<p>This&#039;ll be probably be the last time I blog here.  I get tired of the same old political-correctness.  I wonder what InterVarsity would say, since they&#039;ve been victims of this whole mentality on certain campuses&#8230;too bad</p>
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		<title>By: Julie Clawson</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2009/09/14/moltmann-reflections-2/comment-page-1/#comment-5359</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie Clawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 23:22:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/?p=1185#comment-5359</guid>
		<description>all good, that&#039;s what makes blogging fun :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>all good, that&#039;s what makes blogging fun <img src='http://julieclawson.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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