But what I was talking about isn't just the discomfort that comes from realizing not everyone in the room agrees with me and that varying viewpoints are represented. What I'm talking about is entering a room that is full of "us vs. them" language and realizing that in at least some ways I'm one of "them." Given the amount of personal pain involved on the part of so many, maybe it's asking too much to suggest it should be any other way.

But I prefer, for example, the approach of RJS at the Jesus Creed blog when she talks about evangelicals, fundamentalists, young earth creationists and complementarians. As a female university professor with a PhD in chemistry a life of faith experience, if anyone would have reason to be bitter and nasty toward them, she would. But she consistently eschews that kind of talk and thus creates a much more welcoming environment for dialogue. She even at times defends fundamentalists or complementarians against people who post nasty, dismissive things about them (though she disagrees with them and many of them have said and done hurtful things to her). That's attractive and Christlike, IMO.

what bothers me is the idea that if people express any sort of disagreement at all then they can’t work together. I see this often among evangelicals who say that emergents disagreeing with them at all equates with them being unwelcoming. Welcoming doesn’t equal agreement in my book – it’s just that most people really can’t live in the tension.

I want to affirm/reiterate what my wife said here. I wonder if some of the reason some evangelicals feel "unwelcome" among emergents is because they are applying their own standard for acceptance and fellowship, i.e. total agreement on core doctrines, to this conversation, without realizing that those standards are not relevant here. If your whole experience of church to this point has been "conform to the party line/statement of faith or get out", I can imagine how it might be really difficult to grasp that not all faith communities have to operate that way. It could be really hard to believe that a lack of agreement does NOT have to equal a lack of friendship/fellowship, etc. If all you've ever known is exclusivity, maybe you just project that onto every other community you encounter as well, even the ones that are trying as hard as they can to be radically inclusive.

(BTW, I'm using a generic "you", not talking about anyone in particular.)

Long time no "talk"! I realize it seems for both of us we find ourselves opposing one another. I've just been kind of lurking and reading your thoughts. I just wanted to say something real quick and no it isn't bad.

you said to Dan, " I agree, change is the problem. I would add though that I don’t think all of those who are disappointed now started in an angry rebellious mode saying FU to the evangelical church. Some did, but I think for others it had more to do with growing up and healthy relationships. As they matured they couldn’t maintain intellectual integrity and stay within evangelical churches. To grow up and become adults they had to leave and find honest expressions of faith. So it is hard to see others who haven’t matured or gone the same route in their maturing process joining in what was a very significant rite of passage for them. And others still had to leave the evangelical church to remain emotionally healthy. Their experience of church was at best damaging and at worse abusing – to be a healthy, whole person they had to break ties with evangelicalism. So having others keep trying to reforge those ties is unsettling."

I appreciate this. This is true and right on. I couldn't have come close saying it better. It is exactly, for better or worse, where I'm coming from. So thank you for saying that so well. I appreciate it!

Julie, your comments to Dan reinforce my feeling that despite the insistence of Mike and others that it's fully possible to be both evangelical and emergent, there is a strong undercurrent of opinion within emergent that in fact the two are incompatible and evangelicals are unwelcome. Indeed, even reforging ties with evangelicals is seen as unsettling. Shades of second-degree separationism.

Like commenter Pippin in his comment #11 to your "Emergent Insiders?" post, I can relate to the frustrating feeling of being "too liberal to be conservative and too conservative to be liberal" while at the core, remaining fairly conservative theologically, at least by emerging or mainline standards. It's an uncomfortable place to be, and it's too bad that emergent doesn't convey a more consistently welcoming a vibe for such folks than does your local Baptist church. But maybe that's asking the impossible.

Tripp – thanks. your post is helpful and adds a needed perspective

Dan – I agree, change is the problem. I would add though that I don't think all of those who are disappointed now started in an angry rebellious mode saying FU to the evangelical church. Some did, but I think for others it had more to do with growing up and healthy relationships. As they matured they couldn't maintain intellectual integrity and stay within evangelical churches. To grow up and become adults they had to leave and find honest expressions of faith. So it is hard to see others who haven't matured or gone the same route in their maturing process joining in what was a very significant rite of passage for them. And others still had to leave the evangelical church to remain emotionally healthy. Their experience of church was at best damaging and at worse abusing – to be a healthy, whole person they had to break ties with evangelicalism. So having others keep trying to reforge those ties is unsettling.

Chris – good point, expanding our vocabulary can only help us in building relationships.

I find that lately I'm asking, "what does this (insert idiom/metaphor/brand here) mean to you?" I think that alot of what the Emergent mission has been to me has been listening; making it possible for 'the other' to be heard. I've noticed that when 'the other' feels heard/understood then a new expression of action is possible and maybe even unstoppable.

All that to say that, while how we say what we say leaves an indelible mark on our relationships, how we hear what we hear does as well. "Emergence" has equipped me with new ears in a lot ways. If Emergent is a conversation then all this is important.

Thanks, Julie, for your soul-filled and always articulate contribution to the world that is blog!