Comments on: Christians, Empire, and the Economy http://julieclawson.com/2009/05/04/christians-empire-and-the-economy/ incantations at the edge of uncertainty Mon, 21 May 2012 01:57:11 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Matt Stone http://julieclawson.com/2009/05/04/christians-empire-and-the-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-4833 Matt Stone Tue, 12 May 2009 13:59:35 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/?p=1009#comment-4833 Great thoughts. I don't think its easy to change, but for that reason precisely we need to encourage one another Great thoughts. I don't think its easy to change, but for that reason precisely we need to encourage one another

]]> By: onehandclapping « accidental seminarian http://julieclawson.com/2009/05/04/christians-empire-and-the-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-4828 onehandclapping « accidental seminarian Sun, 10 May 2009 17:00:33 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/?p=1009#comment-4828 [...] I have intermittently read but never commented on nor told anyone else about is a little gem called onehandclapping by Julie [...] [...] I have intermittently read but never commented on nor told anyone else about is a little gem called onehandclapping by Julie [...]

]]> By: JWAL http://julieclawson.com/2009/05/04/christians-empire-and-the-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-4776 JWAL Wed, 06 May 2009 18:31:31 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/?p=1009#comment-4776 Great insights. This primary source has great significance because it allows us to step back in time and develop a more accurate view of the early church. This letter may be the subject of a future post on my own blog... Great insights. This primary source has great significance because it allows us to step back in time and develop a more accurate view of the early church.

This letter may be the subject of a future post on my own blog…

]]> By: Julie Clawson http://julieclawson.com/2009/05/04/christians-empire-and-the-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-4767 Julie Clawson Tue, 05 May 2009 15:56:59 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/?p=1009#comment-4767 Sonja - it is hard. and this example even shows that things went back to the way they were when the persecution started - those Christians gave up their values. so i understand why christians rarely make an impact. Chris - I linked to the letter in the post, but a number of different translations do exist. Jerry - I'm torn about the issues you raise. I think a reimagining of the economy is needed - but i see that as such a pipe-dream that will never work that I would rather concentrate my efforts on thing that have the potential to actually make a difference. The economic world as we know it will continue to exist even if every Christian applied their values in the marketplace - but there are ways to redeem that economy and help make it more just. Our choices are limited, but we can still effect change within those choices. And it doesn't have to be individuals. Churches have a huge role to play in setting the example in these areas - consuming ethically, helping members live differently, supporting local businesses, putting pressure on those who support unjust systems. A lot of crap occurs in the world because businesses are accountable to no one. Churches don't seem to care as long as those businessmen dump a bit of what they are making (often at the expense of others) into the offering plate. This is a huge opportunity for churches to step up and call their members to actually live by their faith. Sonja – it is hard. and this example even shows that things went back to the way they were when the persecution started – those Christians gave up their values. so i understand why christians rarely make an impact.

Chris – I linked to the letter in the post, but a number of different translations do exist.

Jerry – I'm torn about the issues you raise. I think a reimagining of the economy is needed – but i see that as such a pipe-dream that will never work that I would rather concentrate my efforts on thing that have the potential to actually make a difference. The economic world as we know it will continue to exist even if every Christian applied their values in the marketplace – but there are ways to redeem that economy and help make it more just. Our choices are limited, but we can still effect change within those choices. And it doesn't have to be individuals. Churches have a huge role to play in setting the example in these areas – consuming ethically, helping members live differently, supporting local businesses, putting pressure on those who support unjust systems. A lot of crap occurs in the world because businesses are accountable to no one. Churches don't seem to care as long as those businessmen dump a bit of what they are making (often at the expense of others) into the offering plate. This is a huge opportunity for churches to step up and call their members to actually live by their faith.

]]> By: Jerry http://julieclawson.com/2009/05/04/christians-empire-and-the-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-4766 Jerry Tue, 05 May 2009 12:09:11 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/?p=1009#comment-4766 I agree that it largely goes unquestioned that the church should support the state economy. One frustration I've had about that, though, is that often the proposed solutions involve a politics of consumption--boycotts or ethical consumption practices such as the ones you list. These aren't nothing--I'm actually starting a dissertation around this broad issue. But it fails to recognize how consumers' choices are limited by what's provided to us by producers. It also tends to atomize action, making it the responsibility of individual consumers rather than communities, as well as avoiding talking about the politics of our workplaces. So that's all to say that I think part of the goal here is to reconceive the whole economy, not just consuming differently. I agree that it largely goes unquestioned that the church should support the state economy. One frustration I've had about that, though, is that often the proposed solutions involve a politics of consumption–boycotts or ethical consumption practices such as the ones you list. These aren't nothing–I'm actually starting a dissertation around this broad issue. But it fails to recognize how consumers' choices are limited by what's provided to us by producers. It also tends to atomize action, making it the responsibility of individual consumers rather than communities, as well as avoiding talking about the politics of our workplaces. So that's all to say that I think part of the goal here is to reconceive the whole economy, not just consuming differently.

]]> By: Chris Cottingham http://julieclawson.com/2009/05/04/christians-empire-and-the-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-4763 Chris Cottingham Mon, 04 May 2009 20:22:48 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/?p=1009#comment-4763 Great post. I'm now a) really interested to track down a copy of this letter myself. It sounded familiar to me when you mentioned it, but I can't believe I'd have missed the mention of two slave girls as deaconesses, so now I don't think I've read it. b) I'm more aware how little I've done to inform myself about choices I make as a consumer. Companies use child prostitution to incentivize? My God, what a bankrupt and lost people we are. Thanks for the post. Now I've some research to do, and some changes to make. Great post. I'm now a) really interested to track down a copy of this letter myself. It sounded familiar to me when you mentioned it, but I can't believe I'd have missed the mention of two slave girls as deaconesses, so now I don't think I've read it. b) I'm more aware how little I've done to inform myself about choices I make as a consumer. Companies use child prostitution to incentivize? My God, what a bankrupt and lost people we are.

Thanks for the post. Now I've some research to do, and some changes to make.

]]> By: Rach http://julieclawson.com/2009/05/04/christians-empire-and-the-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-4762 Rach Mon, 04 May 2009 19:30:48 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/?p=1009#comment-4762 Julie, you are so right. Thanks for reminding me that what we choose to do with our money can make a huge difference. As to feeling uninformed - maybe we should be far more investigative with regards to the companies we buy things from, and remember that there is power in numbers - I think we need to bring these conversations into our church gatherings and when we know something isn't right in a company or organisation, try to raise people's awareness and encourage alternative choices. I'm really looking forward to your book! By the way I think it's really exciting that organisations like Stop the Traffik have been putting pressure on chocolate companies like Cadburys and Mars to go traffick-free in their products - and are succeeding! Also I don't know about the situation in the US but here in the UK, retailers are becoming much more aware of ethical issues. There is still a long way to go, but some of our high street stores are starting to make changes to the conditions under which their clothes are produced. Julie, you are so right. Thanks for reminding me that what we choose to do with our money can make a huge difference. As to feeling uninformed – maybe we should be far more investigative with regards to the companies we buy things from, and remember that there is power in numbers – I think we need to bring these conversations into our church gatherings and when we know something isn't right in a company or organisation, try to raise people's awareness and encourage alternative choices. I'm really looking forward to your book! By the way I think it's really exciting that organisations like Stop the Traffik have been putting pressure on chocolate companies like Cadburys and Mars to go traffick-free in their products – and are succeeding! Also I don't know about the situation in the US but here in the UK, retailers are becoming much more aware of ethical issues. There is still a long way to go, but some of our high street stores are starting to make changes to the conditions under which their clothes are produced.

]]> By: sonja http://julieclawson.com/2009/05/04/christians-empire-and-the-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-4759 sonja Mon, 04 May 2009 14:38:17 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/?p=1009#comment-4759 Don't even dare suggest that torture is unChristian ... oh, the names that you get called. I began my rants against Wal-Mart (for example) years ago long before anyone else even recognized the problem and people laughed. I've always tried to watch what and where I purchase and use my money wisely and long before anyone talked about it. I've been purchasing eco-friendly cleaning solutions since my kids were babies ... waaaaayyyyy before it was trendy. People laughed and told me I was being silly. If you've ever seen a salmon just before they spawn that's what I feel like right now. Tired, worn out and with very little skin left from swimming against the stream for so long. I'm not going to stop. But it's exhausting. Don't even dare suggest that torture is unChristian … oh, the names that you get called.

I began my rants against Wal-Mart (for example) years ago long before anyone else even recognized the problem and people laughed. I've always tried to watch what and where I purchase and use my money wisely and long before anyone talked about it. I've been purchasing eco-friendly cleaning solutions since my kids were babies … waaaaayyyyy before it was trendy. People laughed and told me I was being silly.

If you've ever seen a salmon just before they spawn that's what I feel like right now. Tired, worn out and with very little skin left from swimming against the stream for so long. I'm not going to stop. But it's exhausting.

]]> By: Mike Clawson http://julieclawson.com/2009/05/04/christians-empire-and-the-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-4758 Mike Clawson Mon, 04 May 2009 14:34:57 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/?p=1009#comment-4758 <blockquote>I try, but I feel uninformed on so many issues. The corrupt ways of corporations and systems have become so commonplace that no one talks about them and it almost feels as if there are no safe places.</blockquote> Andrea - with so much systemic injustice out there, it's definitely hard to stay informed. I don't mean to just give a shameless plug for <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Everyday-Justice-Global-Impact-Choices/dp/0830836284/" rel="nofollow">Julie's book</a> (okay, maybe I do a little bit ;), but that's exactly what she has written about. It doesn't come out till October, but when it does, hopefully it will help you feel a little more informed, and a little more empowered to make a difference.

I try, but I feel uninformed on so many issues. The corrupt ways of corporations and systems have become so commonplace that no one talks about them and it almost feels as if there are no safe places.

Andrea – with so much systemic injustice out there, it's definitely hard to stay informed. I don't mean to just give a shameless plug for Julie's book (okay, maybe I do a little bit ;) , but that's exactly what she has written about. It doesn't come out till October, but when it does, hopefully it will help you feel a little more informed, and a little more empowered to make a difference.

]]> By: Andrea http://julieclawson.com/2009/05/04/christians-empire-and-the-economy/comment-page-1/#comment-4755 Andrea Mon, 04 May 2009 14:01:59 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/?p=1009#comment-4755 And even then, is our faith ready to uphold the pressure that we most certainly will receive when the "pressure" is put on by those around us? It breaks my heart. I AM seen as unpatriotic and a raging liberal by many who claim to love Jesus, but if for one second they could see a body of believers acting out their faith in this way maybe they would get it. I try, but I feel uninformed on so many issues. The corrupt ways of corporations and systems have become so commonplace that no one talks about them and it almost feels as if there are no safe places. Thank you to those organizations that are making it easier, and blogs like this that remind us what it is we're fighting for. And even then, is our faith ready to uphold the pressure that we most certainly will receive when the "pressure" is put on by those around us? It breaks my heart. I AM seen as unpatriotic and a raging liberal by many who claim to love Jesus, but if for one second they could see a body of believers acting out their faith in this way maybe they would get it. I try, but I feel uninformed on so many issues. The corrupt ways of corporations and systems have become so commonplace that no one talks about them and it almost feels as if there are no safe places. Thank you to those organizations that are making it easier, and blogs like this that remind us what it is we're fighting for.

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