Comments on: Hierarchy, Freedom, and Emergent http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/ Sat, 13 Mar 2010 06:25:48 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Julie Clawson http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/comment-page-1/#comment-3897 Julie Clawson Sun, 04 Jan 2009 16:35:59 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/#comment-3897 Liz - cute as always. but you always seem to miss the point. Liz – cute as always. but you always seem to miss the point.

]]> By: Liz http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/comment-page-1/#comment-3895 Liz Sat, 03 Jan 2009 23:40:54 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/#comment-3895 well, then, I guess we need to fire Obama. And all the other elected officials as well. Good news: we get rid of Obama. Bad news: anarchy might not be such a great idea.... This is one of the most asinine ideas that i have ever heard of. Of course there is hierarchy. Do you work? If you work, isn't there a boss? Isn't there a teacher in school??? You are parents. Except for the most extreme parenting weirdos' (google Taking Children Seriously....) families contain hierarchy. I am sure that even a city as liberal as Austin has a mayor. But they shouldn't. That;s hierarchy. There should not be judges in the courtrooms, police on the streets, city counsel men/women..oh, you get the idea. Let's just rid the world of any and all authority that one person might hold over another and see how well things run....NOT.... well, then, I guess we need to fire Obama. And all the other elected officials as well. Good news: we get rid of Obama. Bad news: anarchy might not be such a great idea….
This is one of the most asinine ideas that i have ever heard of. Of course there is hierarchy. Do you work? If you work, isn’t there a boss? Isn’t there a teacher in school??? You are parents. Except for the most extreme parenting weirdos’ (google Taking Children Seriously….) families contain hierarchy. I am sure that even a city as liberal as Austin has a mayor. But they shouldn’t. That;s hierarchy. There should not be judges in the courtrooms, police on the streets, city counsel men/women..oh, you get the idea.
Let’s just rid the world of any and all authority that one person might hold over another and see how well things run….NOT….

]]> By: P3T3RK3Y5 http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/comment-page-1/#comment-3864 P3T3RK3Y5 Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:30:24 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/#comment-3864 (seriously messed up onesie - can't imagine!) creating a vacuum (by first creating a space and then exiting) is a great way to let new folks emerge. we create vacuums all the time in my community when its time for a change. or just to develop new talent. i applaud this move by tony. (seriously messed up onesie – can’t imagine!)

creating a vacuum (by first creating a space and then exiting) is a great way to let new folks emerge.

we create vacuums all the time in my community when its time for a change. or just to develop new talent.

i applaud this move by tony.

]]> By: Mike Clawson http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/comment-page-1/#comment-3863 Mike Clawson Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:37:34 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/#comment-3863 I've noticed the same thing Matt. One minority friend in particular complained to me that people of color were not being invited to the emerging church conversation, and couldn't quite seem to get his mind around my explanation that there really isn't anyone with the authority to do the inviting or to keep them away, and that if they wanted to be part of it, all they had to do was show up and join in. (Of course, this particular person mainly thought that joining the emerging conversation meant getting book deals and speaking gigs, and was upset that he hadn't been offered any yet, though I think that was mainly his own issues coming thru.) I’ve noticed the same thing Matt. One minority friend in particular complained to me that people of color were not being invited to the emerging church conversation, and couldn’t quite seem to get his mind around my explanation that there really isn’t anyone with the authority to do the inviting or to keep them away, and that if they wanted to be part of it, all they had to do was show up and join in.

(Of course, this particular person mainly thought that joining the emerging conversation meant getting book deals and speaking gigs, and was upset that he hadn’t been offered any yet, though I think that was mainly his own issues coming thru.)

]]> By: Matt Stone http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/comment-page-1/#comment-3861 Matt Stone Mon, 22 Dec 2008 10:38:43 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/#comment-3861 Good question. It sorta dove tails with some questions I have been asking about leadership imbalances within multicultural churches. I am finding minorities just don't know what to do with egalitarianism. Its like you say, its like they're waiting for an invite but the whole dynamic of flat structures is that there are no gate keepers giving or restricting permission. It reminds me of an old saying, that freedom is always taken, never given. Now that may sound a bit aweful, so let me put it another way, you can never force freedom onto people. Good question. It sorta dove tails with some questions I have been asking about leadership imbalances within multicultural churches. I am finding minorities just don’t know what to do with egalitarianism. Its like you say, its like they’re waiting for an invite but the whole dynamic of flat structures is that there are no gate keepers giving or restricting permission. It reminds me of an old saying, that freedom is always taken, never given. Now that may sound a bit aweful, so let me put it another way, you can never force freedom onto people.

]]> By: Jamie Arpin-Ricci http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/comment-page-1/#comment-3857 Jamie Arpin-Ricci Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:49:17 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/#comment-3857 Great post! My wife teases me that I get more pissed off than her about this issue, but she shares it too. Interestingly, I recently engaged in a similar discussion in a leadership meeting for an organization I am a part of. One of the leader, a Polynesian islander, challenged us (white males) when we invited non-white leaders to step forward. In his culture, it would offensive to presume leadership. Invitation is critical. While he recognized that there are times he will have to step past his culture, we needed to recognize that just "stepping out & stepping up" is also a dominant cultural value that can be just as much an imposition as hierarchy. The other lesson I am learning is this. As much as women might need to take the initiative to lead, we men need to take the initiative to follow. I am working on it... slowly. Thanks for the encouraging challenge! Peace, Jamie Great post! My wife teases me that I get more pissed off than her about this issue, but she shares it too.

Interestingly, I recently engaged in a similar discussion in a leadership meeting for an organization I am a part of. One of the leader, a Polynesian islander, challenged us (white males) when we invited non-white leaders to step forward. In his culture, it would offensive to presume leadership. Invitation is critical. While he recognized that there are times he will have to step past his culture, we needed to recognize that just “stepping out & stepping up” is also a dominant cultural value that can be just as much an imposition as hierarchy.

The other lesson I am learning is this. As much as women might need to take the initiative to lead, we men need to take the initiative to follow. I am working on it… slowly. Thanks for the encouraging challenge!

Peace,
Jamie

]]> By: Julie Clawson http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/comment-page-1/#comment-3856 Julie Clawson Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:02:15 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/#comment-3856 danny - I'm hoping that over time other voices will emerge so to speak as well. not that I don't like the voices we have, but diversity of perspectives is a plus. steve - I think the more this openness is made known, the opportunity to get their voice heard will be easier for women. And I think its a great thing that Phyllis is associating with emergent. As she's told us women, shes our greatest cheerleader - a huge encouragement and role model. danny – I’m hoping that over time other voices will emerge so to speak as well. not that I don’t like the voices we have, but diversity of perspectives is a plus.

steve – I think the more this openness is made known, the opportunity to get their voice heard will be easier for women. And I think its a great thing that Phyllis is associating with emergent. As she’s told us women, shes our greatest cheerleader – a huge encouragement and role model.

]]> By: Mike Clawson http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/comment-page-1/#comment-3855 Mike Clawson Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:59:40 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/#comment-3855 I agree Steve, I hope there will be more Julie Clawson on the EV blog soon. Though it's mostly my fault that there isn't. She's too busy helping me go back to school. :( And I agree that Phyllis' rise within emerging circles is a very good sign. At this point she's almost the female Brian McLaren in terms of prominence and influence IMHO. I just wish she was about a decade younger so we could be sure to have her around for longer. I agree Steve, I hope there will be more Julie Clawson on the EV blog soon. Though it’s mostly my fault that there isn’t. She’s too busy helping me go back to school. :(

And I agree that Phyllis’ rise within emerging circles is a very good sign. At this point she’s almost the female Brian McLaren in terms of prominence and influence IMHO. I just wish she was about a decade younger so we could be sure to have her around for longer.

]]> By: ……links for your linking pleasure 15……….. « Community of the Risen http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/comment-page-1/#comment-3852 ……links for your linking pleasure 15……….. « Community of the Risen Fri, 19 Dec 2008 22:23:00 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/#comment-3852 [...] 2.  Julie Clawson talks about Heirarchy in the Emergent Church. [...] [...] 2.  Julie Clawson talks about Heirarchy in the Emergent Church. [...]

]]> By: Steve K. http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/comment-page-1/#comment-3850 Steve K. Fri, 19 Dec 2008 20:01:03 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/12/19/hierarchy-freedom-and-emergent/#comment-3850 Julie, Thanks for sharing your thoughts here on this. I just want to say that I realize the Emergent Village blog is a pretty prominent platform for Emergent voices, so this is just a wide-open invitation to emerging women to email me things for the Emergent Village blog. If you've already posted it on your personal blog, please email a link to your blog with a note that says "check this out." (I'll assume you are giving permission for me to re-post something on the EV site, and I'll probably ask you for a photo and a short one-sentence bio to go with it ;-) I try to read a lot of emerging women blogs, but I can't read everything, so I appreciate it if/when you can email me stuff and bring it to my attention. I think I've posted/re-posted some really great, thought-provoking, conversation-starting posts from emerging women over the past year or so. There's a great discussion going on right now in response to Jenell Williams Paris' Santa post, and Kelly Bean is writing something for Emergent/C and the EV blog about the upcoming Convergence event. (Just to name a couple of recent examples.) As a side note, I think the "great emergence" of Phyllis Tickle as a prominent Emergent voice/thinker has really been a hugely influential thing over this past year. What do you think of Phyllis' impact/influence? I think the Great Emergence event in Memphis was more gender-balanced than previous Emergent events because of her influence and because of the ongoing work of emerging women (like you, Julie) in the blogosphere and beyond. Just my two cents. I just regret that there isn't more Julie Clawson on the EV blog! Maybe there will be in 2009 ... Here's hopin'. Shalom, Steve Knight knightopia AT gmail.com Julie,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts here on this. I just want to say that I realize the Emergent Village blog is a pretty prominent platform for Emergent voices, so this is just a wide-open invitation to emerging women to email me things for the Emergent Village blog. If you’ve already posted it on your personal blog, please email a link to your blog with a note that says “check this out.” (I’ll assume you are giving permission for me to re-post something on the EV site, and I’ll probably ask you for a photo and a short one-sentence bio to go with it ;-)

I try to read a lot of emerging women blogs, but I can’t read everything, so I appreciate it if/when you can email me stuff and bring it to my attention. I think I’ve posted/re-posted some really great, thought-provoking, conversation-starting posts from emerging women over the past year or so. There’s a great discussion going on right now in response to Jenell Williams Paris’ Santa post, and Kelly Bean is writing something for Emergent/C and the EV blog about the upcoming Convergence event. (Just to name a couple of recent examples.)

As a side note, I think the “great emergence” of Phyllis Tickle as a prominent Emergent voice/thinker has really been a hugely influential thing over this past year. What do you think of Phyllis’ impact/influence? I think the Great Emergence event in Memphis was more gender-balanced than previous Emergent events because of her influence and because of the ongoing work of emerging women (like you, Julie) in the blogosphere and beyond. Just my two cents.

I just regret that there isn’t more Julie Clawson on the EV blog! Maybe there will be in 2009 … Here’s hopin’.

Shalom,
Steve Knight
knightopia AT gmail.com

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