Comments on: Faith and Feeling http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/ Fri, 10 Sep 2010 03:41:24 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Tim http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/comment-page-1/#comment-6977 Tim Mon, 29 Mar 2010 23:36:59 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/#comment-6977 I too was looking for the Fact - Faith - Feelings train illustration when I came across your blog. Not so that I might contradict the illustration, but in order that I might use it. The reason being that I have a firm conviction that too much of our American Christianity is feelings oriented and NOT firmly planted in the Word of God. Honestly, while I appreciate your wrestlings and your "bravery" to address openly your feelings, it seems to me that we must return to the infallability of the word of God. That has been purified 7 times over like silver, it is trustworthy, it is God-breathed, it is infallible, it is "factual," it is the only thing, next to my personal relationship with Jesus Christ that cannot be taken away from me. That is the place of real security, which as I read your comments, is what you are all looking for. Insecurity is placing my trust in things which can be taken away from me - cars, houses, money, relationships (people), jobs, retirement accounts, positions (promotions of leadership), reputation, health, feelings (warm fuzzies), emotions (at a concert or in a "worship" service) - you fill in the blanks. Security comes from placing my trust in things that cannot be taken away - and as far as I've been able to investigate this, there are only two things that fit this category - my "relationship" to the word of God - Living Word (Jesus) and Written Word (the Bible). Study church history and the trail of the martyrs (still happening to believers in other countries around the world) - you will find that while suffering for their allegiance to Jesus Christ, there were only two things that sustained them - Jesus and His Word - the Bible. Remember Corrie Ten Boom in the Hiding Place - the copy of the scriptures they read from while in Ravensbruck. Have you read the Voice of the Martyrs testimonies? Their "stay," their anchor was and still is God's faithfulness, not to give them a feeling, or to sustain a feeling - many of them did not "feel" like dying, but they KNEW based on the scriptures, that God was and is faithful. We had better wake up in America and realize that this Christian life is NOT "all about me." And my relationship with Jesus is NOT based on feelings - certainly they will all be involved in my salvation "experience" - conviction, guilt, lostness, weeping, joy, freedom, peace, satisfaction, rest. Certainly being justified before God through Jesus Christ will involve mind, will and emotions - it is mental, volitional, and emotional - but the foundation of your FAITH cannot, and must not be your emotions or feelings - they will change. Jesus did not rely upon His feelings when addressing Satan in His temptation in the wilderness - He used the Word of God. It must be your firm reliance upon God's faithfulness and trustworthiness to keep His Word as revealed in the Bible - faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. This is not merely a mental assent to what the Bible teaches, it is an absolute reliance upon God to keep His Word. It is His new covenant based upon the sacrificial death of His Son, Jesus, once, for all at Calvary. Forever, Oh Lord, Thy Word is settled in heaven. Psa. 119:89 As for me, I think the FACT, FAITH, FEELINGS train is still a good illustration. I too was looking for the Fact – Faith – Feelings train illustration when I came across your blog. Not so that I might contradict the illustration, but in order that I might use it. The reason being that I have a firm conviction that too much of our American Christianity is feelings oriented and NOT firmly planted in the Word of God. Honestly, while I appreciate your wrestlings and your "bravery" to address openly your feelings, it seems to me that we must return to the infallability of the word of God. That has been purified 7 times over like silver, it is trustworthy, it is God-breathed, it is infallible, it is "factual," it is the only thing, next to my personal relationship with Jesus Christ that cannot be taken away from me. That is the place of real security, which as I read your comments, is what you are all looking for.

Insecurity is placing my trust in things which can be taken away from me – cars, houses, money, relationships (people), jobs, retirement accounts, positions (promotions of leadership), reputation, health, feelings (warm fuzzies), emotions (at a concert or in a "worship" service) – you fill in the blanks. Security comes from placing my trust in things that cannot be taken away – and as far as I've been able to investigate this, there are only two things that fit this category – my "relationship" to the word of God – Living Word (Jesus) and Written Word (the Bible). Study church history and the trail of the martyrs (still happening to believers in other countries around the world) – you will find that while suffering for their allegiance to Jesus Christ, there were only two things that sustained them – Jesus and His Word – the Bible. Remember Corrie Ten Boom in the Hiding Place – the copy of the scriptures they read from while in Ravensbruck. Have you read the Voice of the Martyrs testimonies? Their "stay," their anchor was and still is God's faithfulness, not to give them a feeling, or to sustain a feeling – many of them did not "feel" like dying, but they KNEW based on the scriptures, that God was and is faithful.

We had better wake up in America and realize that this Christian life is NOT "all about me." And my relationship with Jesus is NOT based on feelings – certainly they will all be involved in my salvation "experience" – conviction, guilt, lostness, weeping, joy, freedom, peace, satisfaction, rest. Certainly being justified before God through Jesus Christ will involve mind, will and emotions – it is mental, volitional, and emotional – but the foundation of your FAITH cannot, and must not be your emotions or feelings – they will change. Jesus did not rely upon His feelings when addressing Satan in His temptation in the wilderness – He used the Word of God. It must be your firm reliance upon God's faithfulness and trustworthiness to keep His Word as revealed in the Bible – faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. This is not merely a mental assent to what the Bible teaches, it is an absolute reliance upon God to keep His Word. It is His new covenant based upon the sacrificial death of His Son, Jesus, once, for all at Calvary. Forever, Oh Lord, Thy Word is settled in heaven. Psa. 119:89

As for me, I think the FACT, FAITH, FEELINGS train is still a good illustration.

]]> By: M http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/comment-page-1/#comment-6925 M Mon, 22 Mar 2010 22:34:58 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/#comment-6925 Good stuff. Believe it or not...I was looking for that train illustration. I googled it and came to your blog. God works in mysterious ways. Thanks for sharing your heart. I am reading a book called "Fearless" by Max Lucado right now and we are talking about different types of fears we have. I was looking for an illustration about how we are to not always rely on our feelings. I am going to use some of your statements from your blog! I will give you the credit :). God bless sister, M Good stuff. Believe it or not…I was looking for that train illustration. I googled it and came to your blog. God works in mysterious ways. Thanks for sharing your heart. I am reading a book called "Fearless" by Max Lucado right now and we are talking about different types of fears we have. I was looking for an illustration about how we are to not always rely on our feelings. I am going to use some of your statements from your blog! I will give you the credit :) .

God bless sister,

M

]]> By: Peter McNamara http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/comment-page-1/#comment-3713 Peter McNamara Sat, 22 Nov 2008 15:58:59 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/#comment-3713 As Don Cupitt writes in "Radicals and the Future of the Church," the church is our work of art. He writes that the church is needed because “It is a theatre in which we solemnly enact our deepest feelings.” Today, psychology is providing evidence that behavior, e.g., worship, produces feelings. For example, in "Feelings," James D. Laird argues that feelings do not cause behavior, but rather follow from behavior, and are, in fact, the way that we know about our own bodily states and behaviors. James W. Pennebaker points out that emotions, motivation, and other private feelings are inferred from our behaviors rather than being directly perceived. Thus, it follows that religion is about how we deal with our behaviors and the feelings they produce. The "facts" of religion are secondary. However, if our awareness of God comes from our feelings and experiences, we soon learn that supernatural ways of thinking “improve” our God experiences, preserving them perfectly and unchanging, as Peter would have done on the Mount of Transfiguration when Jesus’ light shone before the disciples. But, of course, as Jesus knew, experiences can’t be preserved, but must be lived, even to death. As Don Cupitt writes in "Radicals and the Future of the Church," the church is our work of art. He writes that the church is needed because “It is a theatre in which we solemnly enact our deepest feelings.” Today, psychology is providing evidence that behavior, e.g., worship, produces feelings. For example, in "Feelings," James D. Laird argues that feelings do not cause behavior, but rather follow from behavior, and are, in fact, the way that we know about our own bodily states and behaviors. James W. Pennebaker points out that emotions, motivation, and other private feelings are inferred from our behaviors rather than being directly perceived. Thus, it follows that religion is about how we deal with our behaviors and the feelings they produce. The "facts" of religion are secondary.
However, if our awareness of God comes from our feelings and experiences, we soon learn that supernatural ways of thinking “improve” our God experiences, preserving them perfectly and unchanging, as Peter would have done on the Mount of Transfiguration when Jesus’ light shone before the disciples. But, of course, as Jesus knew, experiences can’t be preserved, but must be lived, even to death.

]]> By: Patrick http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/comment-page-1/#comment-3666 Patrick Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:08:50 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/#comment-3666 Very well said. I am very afraid of the trend in American evangelicalism of letting feelings drive our faith. While feelings and experience should play a small (very small) role in our theology, the essence of our theology as Christians should be what we feel about God, or our "relationship" with Jesus, or any of that. Christianity is about one thing: Jesus Christ crucified as a sacrifice for our sins. Patrick www.theologyofomaha.com Very well said.

I am very afraid of the trend in American evangelicalism of letting feelings drive our faith. While feelings and experience should play a small (very small) role in our theology, the essence of our theology as Christians should be what we feel about God, or our "relationship" with Jesus, or any of that. Christianity is about one thing: Jesus Christ crucified as a sacrifice for our sins.

Patrick
http://www.theologyofomaha.com

]]> By: Adam http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/comment-page-1/#comment-3654 Adam Wed, 19 Nov 2008 15:55:47 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/#comment-3654 This post rocks my socks off. Thank you for your wonderful description of the kind of faith you wished the small group talked about. This post rocks my socks off. Thank you for your wonderful description of the kind of faith you wished the small group talked about.

]]> By: Megan http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/comment-page-1/#comment-3652 Megan Wed, 19 Nov 2008 13:46:26 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/#comment-3652 I like that you question the train illustration, which I also dislike. But I had a different experience with a completely different group of women. For years I was the token liberal among a group of conservative fundamentalists. These women did all the right things: they homeschooled their children, voted pro-life; one was a former MOPS coordinator who'd become politically involved. One evening these women shared their concept of God. It was anything but warm and fuzzy. God, they said, was unforgiving, incapable of healing us from our past and had a particular vendetta against women. The way these women described God matched the way I would have described Satan. Needless to say, I left that Bible study. I think it comes down to the story of Mary and Martha. Do we focus on doing the right things or on knowing the right God? At the risk of appearing "shallow," my experience suggests the latter is the best choice. Only as we come to know Christ can we imitate him and trust him enough to take risks in our life. I like that you question the train illustration, which I also dislike. But I had a different experience with a completely different group of women.

For years I was the token liberal among a group of conservative fundamentalists. These women did all the right things: they homeschooled their children, voted pro-life; one was a former MOPS coordinator who'd become politically involved. One evening these women shared their concept of God. It was anything but warm and fuzzy.

God, they said, was unforgiving, incapable of healing us from our past and had a particular vendetta against women. The way these women described God matched the way I would have described Satan. Needless to say, I left that Bible study.

I think it comes down to the story of Mary and Martha. Do we focus on doing the right things or on knowing the right God? At the risk of appearing "shallow," my experience suggests the latter is the best choice. Only as we come to know Christ can we imitate him and trust him enough to take risks in our life.

]]> By: Sam http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/comment-page-1/#comment-3645 Sam Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:48:17 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/#comment-3645 Argh (ugly typo): This is not a criticism of the women at MOPs as individuals, but as a group they can drive some women a way. I know they drove the mother of my children away. I called the group MMOPs: Militant Moms of Preschoolers. Argh (ugly typo):

This is not a criticism of the women at MOPs as individuals, but as a group they can drive some women a way. I know they drove the mother of my children away. I called the group MMOPs: Militant Moms of Preschoolers.

]]> By: Sam http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/comment-page-1/#comment-3644 Sam Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:47:14 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/#comment-3644 This is not a criticism of the women at MOPs as individuals, but as a group they can drive some women a way. I know they drove the mother of my children away. I called it MMOP: Militant Moms of Preschoolers. This is not a criticism of the women at MOPs as individuals, but as a group they can drive some women a way. I know they drove the mother of my children away. I called it MMOP: Militant Moms of Preschoolers.

]]> By: Carol Mount http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/comment-page-1/#comment-3639 Carol Mount Tue, 18 Nov 2008 01:18:35 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/#comment-3639 Julie, I love this comment: A Christianity based just on feeling has the disturbing outcome of placing ourselves at the center of our faith. Feelings and relationships are good, but they are not the main point of following Jesus. When I was deeply depressed I had no feelings of faith...just head knowledge and that was what pulled me through. God was who He was despite my situation and I praise Him for it! Peace, Carol. Julie,

I love this comment: A Christianity based just on feeling has the disturbing outcome of placing ourselves at the center of our faith. Feelings and relationships are good, but they are not the main point of following Jesus.

When I was deeply depressed I had no feelings of faith…just head knowledge and that was what pulled me through. God was who He was despite my situation and I praise Him for it! Peace,
Carol.

]]> By: Julie Clawson http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/comment-page-1/#comment-3638 Julie Clawson Mon, 17 Nov 2008 20:22:04 +0000 http://julieclawson.com/2008/11/16/faith-and-feeling/#comment-3638 I do enjoy MOPs, although I don't always agree. The women are great and I have a good time there. I just wish that I had some sort of outlet for real conversation these days. I go to MOPs and get churchianity lite or I go to church and am dealing with the kids all morning- those are my only outside the house/ be with other adults moments these days. I'm going slightly crazy and would love real interaction with people one of these days. so i just have to make do online... I do enjoy MOPs, although I don't always agree. The women are great and I have a good time there.

I just wish that I had some sort of outlet for real conversation these days. I go to MOPs and get churchianity lite or I go to church and am dealing with the kids all morning- those are my only outside the house/ be with other adults moments these days. I'm going slightly crazy and would love real interaction with people one of these days.

so i just have to make do online…

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