If it wasn’t for the “toxic” faith of the church in history then we wouldn’t have any semblance of what it means to follow Jesus. We literally wouldn’t be able to do it.

Hey Tyler–welcome to the conversation. You ask reasonable questions =)

I’m wondering if you can elaborate a little on this theme? Would you say that Jesus was “toxic” in the sense in which Julie is using the word? Or the early (book of Acts) church was toxic in that sense? Or are you talking post Constantine? Or are you saying that since the only way we could *receive* Christianity as transmitted through people over 2000 years is through toxic people, since people are in their nature toxic?

Or am I totally misunderstanding you altogether?

‘Cause it seems kind of circular to say “Well, we wouldn’t be humans if we weren’t toxic, therefore we shouldn’t criticize ourselves too harshly for being toxic.” Although there is a certain truth to that. Overzealous self-criticism is hardly any more productive than overzealous other-criticism, I suppose. Progress not perfection–is that what you’re saying?

Because of your immense unkindness toward me, as well as your ongoing lack of response to my own questions, I’m not going to respond to the horrific and traumatic hypothetical you pose. But here’s a reciprocal hypothetical for you. This is a serious question.

What would you do if a group of highly placed powerful people in the U.S. government arrested the person you loved most in all the universe, and tortured and mocked him or her over the course of about 12 hours, and then crucified him or her naked on the mall on Washington D.C., and left him or her there to die the torturous death of the victim of crucifixion, and you had the power to stop them, and more than just stop them–you had the power to unexist them?

What if you could trade some specific amount of your own suffering for the guarantee of an end to all suffering? How much would you be willing to trade? What sort of security would you want on the guarantee?

I know I wouldn’t be willing to trade very much at all. How do I know this? I know this by taking a wee peek into the amount of suffering I could currently alleviate by making a few simple changes, which I generally fail to make. My history seems to indicate that I’m unwilling to make many changes until I grow to love myself or another enough that my or their pain becomes more horrible than the pain of making the change. Which in a sense makes me very much part of the human race.

Aslan says “No one is allowed to no what ‘would have happened’”

And Corrie Ten Boom’s father says “When do I give you the train ticket, Corrie?” to which she replies “Just before we board the train, daddy”. Which in a sense means noone is allowed to know what *will* happen, nor even what they *will* do. We can of course dream about what we would do. I wonder if Corrie occasionally wished she could have crushed with mighty power the evil unkind guards who oversaw her time in Auschwitz? I bet she did. But I bet she didn’t go with that. I bet she was glad when the thought retreated, to come and attack again at a later time. I wonder if some part of her reveled in the trial and execution of Adolf Eichmann in 1962? I rather suspect that some part of her did, and that she realized that this part of her was not the best part of her, and fought it. Of course that is all speculation.

Is there some third way, or must be choose be either the victim or the perp? Some wise person said to me, the last time I asked that question online, that the truth is we are constantly doing both.