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	<title>Comments on: Ideological Luddites</title>
	<atom:link href="http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/</link>
	<description>incantations at the edge of uncertainty</description>
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		<title>By: real live preacher</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/comment-page-1/#comment-1979</link>
		<dc:creator>real live preacher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 17:56:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/#comment-1979</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll tell you what&#039;s funny. There aren&#039;t any true Luddites. Everyone uses technology. It&#039;s only a question of where you draw the line. And since that is the only question, you might as well be thoughtful, as you&#039;ve suggested, and draw it with lots of curves and wiggles. It doesn&#039;t have to be a straight line with everything on one side and nothing on the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;ll tell you what&#039;s funny. There aren&#039;t any true Luddites. Everyone uses technology. It&#039;s only a question of where you draw the line. And since that is the only question, you might as well be thoughtful, as you&#039;ve suggested, and draw it with lots of curves and wiggles. It doesn&#039;t have to be a straight line with everything on one side and nothing on the other.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Hayes</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/comment-page-1/#comment-1950</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Hayes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2008 04:46:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/#comment-1950</guid>
		<description>Hmmm, I don&#039;t see that I condemned anyone for downloading ring tones. I just said that I don&#039;t see much point to it. 

I make coffee in a coffee pot. Does that make me an ideological Luddite? Someone once gave us one of those fancy machines, and it was nice to be able to wake up in the morning and there was a cup of hot coffee. But eventually it broke. My wife bought a new one about a year ago. Nice because it is supposed to keep the coffee warm in a jug after it&#039;s made. But none of the coffee went in the jug, it just went all over the counter and the floor. So I still make it in a coffee pot, even though after the first cup I have to heat it up in the microwave oven.

But that doesn&#039;t mean that I &quot;condemn&quot; those who use fancy coffee making machines. If they work for them, fine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm, I don&#039;t see that I condemned anyone for downloading ring tones. I just said that I don&#039;t see much point to it. </p>
<p>I make coffee in a coffee pot. Does that make me an ideological Luddite? Someone once gave us one of those fancy machines, and it was nice to be able to wake up in the morning and there was a cup of hot coffee. But eventually it broke. My wife bought a new one about a year ago. Nice because it is supposed to keep the coffee warm in a jug after it&#039;s made. But none of the coffee went in the jug, it just went all over the counter and the floor. So I still make it in a coffee pot, even though after the first cup I have to heat it up in the microwave oven.</p>
<p>But that doesn&#039;t mean that I &#034;condemn&#034; those who use fancy coffee making machines. If they work for them, fine.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie Clawson</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/comment-page-1/#comment-1947</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie Clawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/#comment-1947</guid>
		<description>Steve - I think it does come down to what each person can &quot;justify.&quot;  You have your justifications for your PC and cell phone, but condemn those who Facebook or download ringtones.  But I bet there are those who do such things who could provide a logical reason for why they do them.  What I think is most key is the ability to think about it and provide reason for doing what we do.  Sure some justifications can be questioned (but I think most will come down to personal preference), but at least they will have been examined.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve &#8211; I think it does come down to what each person can &#034;justify.&#034;  You have your justifications for your PC and cell phone, but condemn those who Facebook or download ringtones.  But I bet there are those who do such things who could provide a logical reason for why they do them.  What I think is most key is the ability to think about it and provide reason for doing what we do.  Sure some justifications can be questioned (but I think most will come down to personal preference), but at least they will have been examined.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Hayes</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/comment-page-1/#comment-1944</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Hayes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 04:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/#comment-1944</guid>
		<description>One criterion is whether our tools liberate us, or whether we become slaves to them. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 

Does a washing machine allow me to use my time more productively by spending it on doing something better than just transferring dirt from one place to another. Ir is it something that will just get me into increasing debt, because there are things that i have to have?

A washing machine might save me time that I can put to other uses, like blogging. But is what I write in my blog worth it? Does anyone read it, and if they do read it, are they any better off for having read it?

I&#039;m not necessarily advocating a kind of utilitarian outlook on this, but sometimes it can help. It&#039;s not just technology, but techniques that are not material. Sometimes a method for doing something can become a fad and an end in itself, and we forget what it was introduced for. 

I was one of the first on my block to get a PC, because I loved the idea of being able to put information in a machine and find it again.

I was one of the last to get a cell phone. I saw no need for one until I had to take a student to get passports and visas to go and study in Kenya, and report to the church office or get information from them -- and having to drive home to phone or drive around looking for a public phone convinced me that a cell phone could be a useful thing. I still don&#039;t see the point of downloading ring tones, though.

Same with Facebook -- keeping in touch with people is a useful concept, but downloading applications to deal with vibrating virtual hamsters is not. When your time is frittered away with such things, perhaps technology has become an idol.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One criterion is whether our tools liberate us, or whether we become slaves to them. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. </p>
<p>Does a washing machine allow me to use my time more productively by spending it on doing something better than just transferring dirt from one place to another. Ir is it something that will just get me into increasing debt, because there are things that i have to have?</p>
<p>A washing machine might save me time that I can put to other uses, like blogging. But is what I write in my blog worth it? Does anyone read it, and if they do read it, are they any better off for having read it?</p>
<p>I&#039;m not necessarily advocating a kind of utilitarian outlook on this, but sometimes it can help. It&#039;s not just technology, but techniques that are not material. Sometimes a method for doing something can become a fad and an end in itself, and we forget what it was introduced for. </p>
<p>I was one of the first on my block to get a PC, because I loved the idea of being able to put information in a machine and find it again.</p>
<p>I was one of the last to get a cell phone. I saw no need for one until I had to take a student to get passports and visas to go and study in Kenya, and report to the church office or get information from them &#8212; and having to drive home to phone or drive around looking for a public phone convinced me that a cell phone could be a useful thing. I still don&#039;t see the point of downloading ring tones, though.</p>
<p>Same with Facebook &#8212; keeping in touch with people is a useful concept, but downloading applications to deal with vibrating virtual hamsters is not. When your time is frittered away with such things, perhaps technology has become an idol.</p>
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		<title>By: Julie Clawson</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/comment-page-1/#comment-1939</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie Clawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 19:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/#comment-1939</guid>
		<description>Bruce - I am aware of the history of the Luddites and do find their story fascinating.  Like Mike mentioned I was using the term in its current popular usage and not in its historical context.

Karl - I fully understand that there are various reason to question technology and that some people have well thought out ethical reason for why they choose not to engage.  I&#039;ve just had a number of conversations recently with people who reject forms of technology and condemn those of us that do mostly because technology is new and different.  the don&#039;t understand it, they have heard a bad story or two, and so they blanket condemn it.  I find that there often doesn&#039;t have to be an all or nothing approach to things like this.  I see there being ethical approaches to most things if people would take the time to engage them.  And I see presenting the ethical options to people as being much more likely to take hold and persuade than to preach complete rejection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce &#8211; I am aware of the history of the Luddites and do find their story fascinating.  Like Mike mentioned I was using the term in its current popular usage and not in its historical context.</p>
<p>Karl &#8211; I fully understand that there are various reason to question technology and that some people have well thought out ethical reason for why they choose not to engage.  I&#039;ve just had a number of conversations recently with people who reject forms of technology and condemn those of us that do mostly because technology is new and different.  the don&#039;t understand it, they have heard a bad story or two, and so they blanket condemn it.  I find that there often doesn&#039;t have to be an all or nothing approach to things like this.  I see there being ethical approaches to most things if people would take the time to engage them.  And I see presenting the ethical options to people as being much more likely to take hold and persuade than to preach complete rejection.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/comment-page-1/#comment-1937</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/#comment-1937</guid>
		<description>Good Wendell Berry article here:

&quot;For the last four-plus decades, Berry, 72, has been asserting in various ways that we Americans live without much care for the world and our place in it. Berry points out that most of us consume and adopt new technologies without considering the hidden costs. Berry asks, how many of us think about environmental degradation when we start up our computers, which in cases depend on electricity from coal gouged out of the mountains of Appalachia?

Berry does not mean that no one should use a computer or technology. Indeed, at the 125-acre farm he calls home at Lane&#039;s Landing, near Kentucky&#039;s tiny Port Royal (population 116), Berry drives a truck, uses a chainsaw, and has a CD player—though there is no computer. He writes in a tree-house stand on his hillside farm.

&quot;For some,&quot; Berry writes, &quot;their involvement in pollution, soil depletion, strip-mining, deforestation, industrial and commercial waste is simply a &#039;practical&#039; compromise, a necessary &#039;reality,&#039; the price of modern comfort and convenience. For others, this list of involvements is an agenda for thought and work that will produce remedies.&quot;

http://www.ctlibrary.com/39301</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good Wendell Berry article here:</p>
<p>&#034;For the last four-plus decades, Berry, 72, has been asserting in various ways that we Americans live without much care for the world and our place in it. Berry points out that most of us consume and adopt new technologies without considering the hidden costs. Berry asks, how many of us think about environmental degradation when we start up our computers, which in cases depend on electricity from coal gouged out of the mountains of Appalachia?</p>
<p>Berry does not mean that no one should use a computer or technology. Indeed, at the 125-acre farm he calls home at Lane&#039;s Landing, near Kentucky&#039;s tiny Port Royal (population 116), Berry drives a truck, uses a chainsaw, and has a CD player—though there is no computer. He writes in a tree-house stand on his hillside farm.</p>
<p>&#034;For some,&#034; Berry writes, &#034;their involvement in pollution, soil depletion, strip-mining, deforestation, industrial and commercial waste is simply a &#039;practical&#039; compromise, a necessary &#039;reality,&#039; the price of modern comfort and convenience. For others, this list of involvements is an agenda for thought and work that will produce remedies.&#034;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.ctlibrary.com/39301" rel="nofollow">http://www.ctlibrary.com/39301</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mike Clawson</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/comment-page-1/#comment-1936</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Clawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 17:42:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/#comment-1936</guid>
		<description>The history of Luddites is fascinating, thanks for sharing Bruce. It does seem that they were a more nuanced group than one would assume. However, I don&#039;t think that&#039;s the usual connotation of the term &quot;Luddite&quot; anymore. And in my experience there are plenty of unnuanced people out there these days who do throw the baby out with the bathwater. Berry may or may not be among them, it&#039;s been too long since I&#039;ve read his stuff to remember.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The history of Luddites is fascinating, thanks for sharing Bruce. It does seem that they were a more nuanced group than one would assume. However, I don&#039;t think that&#039;s the usual connotation of the term &#034;Luddite&#034; anymore. And in my experience there are plenty of unnuanced people out there these days who do throw the baby out with the bathwater. Berry may or may not be among them, it&#039;s been too long since I&#039;ve read his stuff to remember.</p>
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		<title>By: Karl</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/comment-page-1/#comment-1935</link>
		<dc:creator>Karl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:49:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/#comment-1935</guid>
		<description>Bruce, Berry is a favorite of mine also.  And I go back and forth re. whether I like his fiction, his poetry or his nonfiction more.  The novel Jayber Crow is probably my favorite of his fiction works; &quot;Mad Farmer Liberation Front&quot; my favorite of his poems; and &quot;What are People For&quot; probably remains my favorite collection of his essays, although that&#039;s probably a sentimental choice b/c it was the first that I read.  I like that in addition to pushing me to make some actual, real-world decisions about how I live and consume, he keeps my conscience a bit uneasy about the lenghts to which I am NOT willing to go, and the sacrifices I have NOT been willing to make.  I want to explain away or justify my decisions in order to quell that uneasiness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce, Berry is a favorite of mine also.  And I go back and forth re. whether I like his fiction, his poetry or his nonfiction more.  The novel Jayber Crow is probably my favorite of his fiction works; &#034;Mad Farmer Liberation Front&#034; my favorite of his poems; and &#034;What are People For&#034; probably remains my favorite collection of his essays, although that&#039;s probably a sentimental choice b/c it was the first that I read.  I like that in addition to pushing me to make some actual, real-world decisions about how I live and consume, he keeps my conscience a bit uneasy about the lenghts to which I am NOT willing to go, and the sacrifices I have NOT been willing to make.  I want to explain away or justify my decisions in order to quell that uneasiness.</p>
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		<title>By: Pistol Pete</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/comment-page-1/#comment-1934</link>
		<dc:creator>Pistol Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 13:20:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/#comment-1934</guid>
		<description>We (myself included) show a good deal of hypocrisy in sharply criticizing the very things we consume.  I much admire people like the poet/essayist Wendell Berry who condemns consumer society AND operates a farm, shops locally, doesn&#039;t own a computer, etc...  There aren&#039;t too many societal critics which such integrity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We (myself included) show a good deal of hypocrisy in sharply criticizing the very things we consume.  I much admire people like the poet/essayist Wendell Berry who condemns consumer society AND operates a farm, shops locally, doesn&#039;t own a computer, etc&#8230;  There aren&#039;t too many societal critics which such integrity.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Gerencser</title>
		<link>http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/comment-page-1/#comment-1933</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Gerencser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 05:51:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://julieclawson.com/2008/01/17/ideological-luddites/#comment-1933</guid>
		<description>Karl,

Wendell Berry is my favorite author. He has been key in my changing worldview. I even read his fiction.......and I don&#039;t do fiction :)

Bruce</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karl,</p>
<p>Wendell Berry is my favorite author. He has been key in my changing worldview. I even read his fiction&#8230;&#8230;.and I don&#039;t do fiction <img src='http://julieclawson.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Bruce</p>
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