The Church of Jesus Christ is just perfect right now, as it always has been.

The problem is that what you are calling "church" is nothing of the sort. What you are calling "church" is nothing more than social clubs, self-help, twelve-stepping, self-esteem building community centers or political action committees that have no interest or desire for living godly lives in the presence of men as a witness of and for Jesus Christ. What you are calling church is a thinly veiled self-worship.

Paul made it quite clear in the New Testament what the role of women was to be – helpmates to their husbands. Co-labourers, not co-managers. Jesus, the Apostles, and especially Paul are all very clear on the role of women in the church. And beyond that, YOU already know this and you already know what that role is. You could SAY it right now if you chose to. We all know the scriptures – the "hard sayings". Arguing that they are a result of a different culture and that Paul was addressing the matters of a culture that is long gone is a misdirection because Paul was the first to say that in Christ, there IS NO CULTURE. That culture matters not one whit and your culture, like your money, perish with you.

I am married twenty years, now. I have six kids, and the unbelievable blessing of a GODLY WIFE that I would not trade for anything in the world – not even any of my six kids. If I had to choose between any or even ALL of my kids, and her, I'd choose HER. God has blessed me with a wife who is at the very least my equal, and in many respects my better. When we are engaging in conversation in mixed company I have absolutely no worry about her stepping in and engaging the other party – absolutely ZERO. Why? Because I know ahead of time that she will speak the same word of God that I would. She will say the things that I would say. She will speak the word of God boldly and with great effect, and I am perfectly content to sit back and let her go. If you are debating with us, you need to fear her more than me.

And my wife will be the very first person to remind you that in the church, women should remain silent and defer to their husbands because the plain demands of scripture require it whether she (or I, for that matter) understand why. And she doesn't do so grudgingly because she knows that by doing so she glorifies God, and she cares more about glorifying God than she does about being seen as a "contributor" or a "leader" or having "input" or keen insight. Let me put it to you straight: she cares more about doing those things that glorify God than she does about the loss of your soul. She will gladly let you go on your way to hell before she will do anything that besmirches the reputation of her Lord or causes men to blaspheme or defame Jesus Christ. She cares nothing about "relationship." She will sacrifice "relationship" before she will compromise one stitch of truth. Why? Because so will I. And because so will God.

When she reads the "hard sayings", she doesn't try to contort them to mean something else. She takes them at face value and treasures actually doing them because she knows that her obedience to her husband glorfies God and she flat doesn't care what your empowerment movement thinks of that. This will sound hard, but it is true: we both will say, in unison, to hell with your "empowerment," we are followers of Jesus Christ, and he esteems those with a contrite and obedient spirit.

I've said all this about my wife to make a point: I believe and do all the same things. Everything I've said about her is true, and she will say the same things about me. have you ever heard about that union between the Father and the Son – perfect from all eternity? Have you ever heard that marriage is the model of that relationship between Father and Son? Jesus said "I have not come to do my will but the will of my father. I do only that which I see Him doing." My wife is the same way with me. When she hears the Lord say "If you love me you will obey me" and she knows exactly what that means to her personally as relates to me.

My wife and I, while not equal, are equally at rest. As she fulfills her responsibility to me she experiences the same fulfillment that I receive when I am responsible to God. And then TOGETHER, we can come before the Lord as "one flesh."

"Gather" all you want, but you will NEVER touch this level of intimacy until the women learn obedience to their husbands, and husbands learn obedience to Christ. It really is just that simple because it has been stated that simply in the scripture.

We believe the scripture and the Lord who wrote it.

There's more – LOTS more that could be said. But I think I;ve said enough. If not, I can send my wife in here, and trust me – you don't want that!

I have a tee-shirt. On the front, it says "I'm a fool for Christ…."

I know many of your names from different blogs, and I just wanted to add my husband–even though he doesn't count inthe same way the other husbands don't count to the list as well as Alan Hirsch.

Alan's blog, The Forgotten Ways is my "first home" blog, and Jesus Creed is my second home–where I have found Scot very supportive. When it gets too tense over women's issues at Jesus Creed, I vent a little at TFW and the crew there are always supportive.

I hear and resonate with all your stories–mine has been a life-long struggle as well. I guess I fit into the category of "start your own conversation"–having been a staff pastor before looking to find a way to implement my vision for using my gifts to help advance God's mission.

Just my two cents….

In any case, Brother Maynard, I have always felt you to be a part of the solution – I won't forget a recent post on your blog that was commented on by nothing but women (initially) and then a man asked if the issue you had written about was primarily a women's issue. You were nothing but supportive of us and made it clear you didn't think that was the case.

Like Mike said, as we focus more and more on justice issues, it's hopefully going to become more difficult for those in the E/M Church to hang onto gender inequality in the church.

I appreciate your mention of the escape from conservative evangelicalism… I wondered if there might still be raw nerves.

"Equality" in general is a tough thing to argue for. I think there are a lot of people who have no issues, but honestly don't know what behaviours are construed as unhelpful and what they could do differently. On that count, I think there are several of you that could illumine a lot in a very helpful way here.

As things shift during the quest for equality, there are awkward moments when people feel like they have to overcompensate and be unfair in an opposite direction to placate those previously wronged. Sometimes you just don't know what to say to not cause offence…. can we call you "gals" or "girls" but not "chicks" or "guys"? Or is that the other way 'round?

Thanks for letting me off the hook… but I'd still really like to see some constructively diffusing commentary. If 70% of the men in the emerging church suddenly said, "Okay, we we've been unfair–but how do we fix it?" what would you say? How would you answer? Being much more concrete, the answer to that may be much easier to consider and respond to.

if her comments don't apply to you then you're pretty much excluded right? Bro. Maynard, as you said, you're not being dissed because you're not in the group of men Julie's speaking of

I personally again want to thank all the men in the Church universal who have taken big risks to advocate for gender justice. There are many of you and your numbers are growing and for that I personally am thankful.

I am sure Julie and others have very warm feelings toward all you men who are speaking out on behalf of women everywhere.

I apologize if anything I have said has made any of you men feel "dissed".

I think maybe some of the frustration is coming from the fact that many of us women have "escaped" conservative evangelicalism because our voices were suppressed and then we lend our voices to what has been dubbed the "emerging church" or to groups that are more progressive and then we read thing from people calling themselves "emerging" or "Emergent" who are just as complementarian as the places from which we escaped.

at least that's the frustration for me. But right now, my beef is with a few people in some current conversations in blog land – you're in the clear Bro. Maynard as is Tony and Paul

and lest we just seem like angry women, please extend some grace, we all should have a right to do some venting without people putting their big feelings on us – own your own feelings.